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Lindsey Hall: Hi. I'm Lindsey Hall, Head of Thought Leadership at S&P Global Sustainable1.

Esther Whieldon: And I'm Esther Whieldon, a Senior Writer on the Sustainable1 Thought Leadership team.

Lindsey Hall: Welcome to ESG Insider, an S&P Global podcast, where Esther and I take you inside the environmental, social and governance issues that are shaping the rapidly evolving sustainability landscape.

March is women's history month. And to mark the occasion, we've relaunched our Women in Leadership series of the podcast.

Throughout 2024, we'll be speaking to women CEOs and leaders from across industries and all over the world. Diversity in leadership has been a focus for many stakeholders in the corporate world in recent years, and gender diversity is where we see most companies creating policies.

Esther Whieldon: But women still hold a relatively low share of corporate leadership roles. This is true for both management and board positions. And we'll include a link in our show notes to research we just published on this topic. We know from our data what the numbers show, but we wanted to understand what's behind those figures. How do the few women who make it to the top of their companies get there? And what challenges do they face along the way?

Lindsey Hall: So to answer these questions today, we're hearing from a woman who's coming to the end of a long career. Martine Ferland is retiring from the role of CEO at Mercer at the end of March 2024. And Esther, I just love her story. As you'll hear, she turned down the CEO role not once, but twice before accepting on the third offer. You'll also hear her talk about empathy and economics or the idea of bringing emotional intelligence to business decision. First off, she reflects on how to know when it's time to retire.

Martine Ferland: I'm Martine Ferland, and I'm currently the CEO of Mercer, part of Marsh McLennan company; Mercer is a large HR and investment consulting firm, and I've been CEO for over five years. I've announced my retirement and therefore, I'm in a transition period to my successor, Pat Tomlinson.

Lindsey Hall: Okay. So let me just start by asking, how are you feeling about this pending change? How is the transition going?

Martine Ferland: Well, you can hold two sentiments in your heart at the same time, sadness and joy. Overall, I'm quite at peace. It's a decision that I have taken very deliberately and thoughtfully over the last year, and we have been, again, blessed that I have a ready successor in Pat, and we've been doing quite an organized transition since his appointment and my announcement.

And therefore, I'm sad to be leaving all of this great team that I loved working with over the years, the colleagues, all the customers, all the clients and all the work that we do here. But I've been 41 years in the industry. I know there's great momentum ahead and a great leadership team to take this forward. So I'm at peace and I'm joyful for what's opening up for me in terms of freedom of time.

Lindsey Hall: Can you talk to me a bit about that decision? How do you know when it's time to retire?

Martine Ferland: Good question. We all know, at some point, we'll get there. I've started in the CEO role, as I said, five or six years ago, I was in an interim role for nine months preparing. And I put forward a 5-year plan, and we've done really well against that plan. The team has jumped in, put that together, and we've been going from strength to strength.

So as I was, last year, starting my fifth year of the 5-year plan, I had already been with the team thinking about next 3-years, next 4-year plan as you do. And then I predicted that forward plus the age I was then and all of the life that was happening around me, grandchildren, et cetera, husband was already retired, many of my friends who have already retired.

And I thought, “Okay, do I just jump in the next four years, deliver that plan?” Because I know once I've committed, I'll see it to the end or is it time for others to take this forward?” The leadership around me is super strong, and I thought “it's a good moment. My moment to transition can always have bumps.” And therefore, I thought “it's great to have that whilst the business is very strong, the team is stable, their succession is ready. They'll take that path forward,” and that's how I decided. But it was a process. It was a process and many lists of pros and cons. But in the end, I think I got to it, again, quite peacefully. But that's been my thinking on all those times. It was time for me and the business was in a good place.

Lindsey Hall: Thank you for sharing that. Given the nature of some of the work that you have done over your career, presumably, you thought about retirement and pensions for quite some time and longevity. So I understand that you've done some work around the topic of longevity with the World Economic Forum. Can you tell our listeners a bit about what that looks like?

Martine Ferland: Yes. And I'm very pleased that actually, at the World Economic Forum and in Davos, I have been attending for a few years and the real challenge of accommodating longer lives in society is being tackled in a much more proactive fashion these years than some years ago. I think it's one of the key challenges of our times that is, yet again, not getting enough attention.

We, with the Mercer with the World Economic Forum, we've worked on a framework of how employers, individual, society at large and government can start tackling the issue that we will have more and more people in older age. And we've put together six principles and a very actionable set of ideas for all parties to deploy, to utilize, to address this.

And the framework goes around financial education, financial security, upskilling, reskilling, social connections because we know as we age, this is an important factor for health. Healthy living, starting early so that we can stay in good health and change to be productive. All of these factors, these principles can work together to help us out.

If we look at the pension savings gap, how many people will lack the funds to finance their longer lives. The burden that might put on our youth on our economies, on our health systems. We need to raise awareness of this situation, demography is destiny. It will happen. And immigration will not solve the problem for most countries.

And therefore, we need to start now, putting in place some of these actions that will see us through because many of these actions, if you look at the list of them, the earliest you can address them, the best. Financial security, for example, as an actuary, we very well know that, a dollar you save at age 20 is worth way more at 65 than, if you'd say, that single at 40. So early interventions, early change in actions are critical here.

Lindsey Hall: Okay. So we've flipped the script a bit, and we've started by talking about your retirement. Let's go back to the start. Can you talk to me about your path to the CEO role? What did that look like?

Martine Ferland: Well, I was never set out to be the CEO. I was very proud pension actuary in my early years and it was important for me to do a good job and to concentrate on what I had in front of me and making it better and delivering to client needs and priorities, but I was curious. And I always raise my hand, I was the annoying student in the class, always wanting to know more and learn more.

And I was lucky as well that I had bosses and clients that noticed that and liked the fact that someone was curious about making things better, understanding how their world turned. And therefore, I got myself offered all kinds of different roles and challenges that I've said yes to more often than I said no. So I think it's been atypical in that way for an actuary, for maybe a woman also, when you read the studies and surveys around that.

I always enjoyed taking a new challenge. And I would say from one thing to the next, learning more, getting all these experiences, a little bit of those scars, the learning that comes from not having succeeded in this or that, I got to get bigger roles over the years, bigger scopes.

And there's an approach here that I think is very much working in consulting, working in leadership nowadays, that was probably something that I hadn't needed, but we've called it at Mercer when we started on our 5-year plan and what are we here for, what’s our purpose, how do we do things, how are we differentiated. We pegged the term empathy in economics, meaning it was fusing empathy and economics that maximize the impact.

And by that, it's a little bit of a fancy way to say EQ/IQ, to say we care for our clients. We want to understand their needs, and we want to pare that. We're proud of our expertise. We're proud of what we do. We are good at what we do as technical experts and being able to fuse that together and balance that right for better impact. And that has really resonated with people I have worked with. They recognized that, at their best, this is what they were doing and so that lead the way.

Lindsey Hall: Esther, this idea of empathy and economics of looking at the EQ or emotional intelligence in the context of economics was not something I'd heard before. I asked my team to tell me more.

Martine Ferland: I think it's this recognition that, first of all, we're here to make a difference in people's lives, in our clients' employees lives in the main. That was our purpose through the expertise that we have, but to differentiate ourselves, we really needed to understand the clients' priorities, their challenges within the spare of our activity, what were their priorities, what were their challenges.

And early on, as part of the strategy, we've established a few principles. One, we really care about colleagues. We really think that when colleagues are at their best, we are at our best as a firm, and people really care to do a good job. And therefore, we brought them along for the journey.

So it was very important for us that they get to input into the strategy, but also that once it landed, that we communicated this very intensely in different channels, in different ways, created what we call at Mercer, the Leaders Dialogue, meaning beyond the team of 12 at the executive level, each have a team of 12 that we created that connection to a team of 150 leaders so they could share the message here and provide input in the broader way.

So Leaders Dialogue so that we were more connected to as a leadership team, the person leading U.S. and Canada could hear from the people who were actually leaders in Australia and Pacific and connect some dots and create some best practice and help each other out.

And we rolled out our strategy in that way, bringing everyone along through that channel so that we were very clear where we were going. We were very clear to our priorities, making a difference in people's life, that what differentiated us was this balance of empathy and economics.

Lindsey Hall: And talking about deciding to retire, Martine touched on the importance of knowing when to say yes in your career and when to say no. I asked her to tell me how this balancing act has shaped her career.

Martine Ferland: We're all human beings, and I do believe that we need to balance -- very similar to empathy and economics, but you need to balance brain, guts, and heart. And sometimes, saying yes when you're inclined to say no, it's to follow your guts a little bit kind of sentiment. And I'll give you two points on this. So of course, if your gut says no, absolutely not, analyze the thing, but they're probably right. You're not ready, it's not for you.

Well, if your gut says why not or why are you afraid or explore more, push more than pull, and say yes more than you say no. And the second point on that one is -- and maybe that's my actual training, but I always had a plan B. And I'll give you a good example of that.

We have three teenagers and we lived in Canada and practice again a few years and I was offered a job in New York. And a lot of people would say, “You don't move three happy and healthy teenagers out of their context.” It's way too risky. It's way too difficult. We basically had a family council to say, “Hey, we have this opportunity, what do you think?” We took input. We discussed it as a family. And there was quite a gutsy inclination to do it together.

And that's where the plan B comes along. We say, “We're happy here.” We know there's a happy place here for us. We can always come to that. If it doesn't work, it is the worst that can happen. So there was a plan B that enabled us or gave us the courage to say, “Let's jump as a family into this new adventure,” and move everyone to Manhattan.

Lindsey Hall: Okay. That's a great example. I understand that you said no to the CEO job twice before accepting on the third offer. Do I have that right?

Martine Ferland: Yes. I said no the first time, maybe the second and yes, the third. That's the reality of it, and they still tease me about it. But I had a plan in the role I was in and I had lots to accomplish. So the first no was I'm not ready. I'm into something here that I want to finish. So that was the nature of the no. And also, it was there a little bit behind the scene, am I really fit for this CEO role, very strong operationally, strategically as well. But do I have enough vision? A bit of, “am I ready for this?” kind of sentiment.

A little touch of maybe imposter syndrome in there. I have to admit, maybe. I had so much to do still in that role, and then they came back again. It would have been nine months later, and can we please ask you to consider this and put you on the list. And then by then, I'd probably reflected upon why am I saying no and there might be something there. Do I have ideas? Do I know how I would do that differently?

And it was starting to form in my head, and I finally said yes, and honestly, I'll be forever grateful for the nudge that these people that have come at it again a couple of times because it's been the honor of my life to serve and to be in that role. It can be a bit daunting to be in that position, but the value of teams, the value of unlocking the power of people that are around you and working this together can be so beautiful.

And I've got that in spades in this role and I'm grateful I finally was pushed to say yes, I did say yes on my own device, and it's funny because we've been talking about me saying yes more often than no in my career. But that's one time I didn't say no, and I basically put at risk all this nice adventure that I then was able to get through.

Lindsey Hall: So based on your perspective, where you stand now at the end of your career, what advice would you give to someone who's earlier out in their career path or maybe is grappling with that imposter syndrome that you mentioned?

Martine Ferland: Well, maybe two answers to that. First, what I'll say to people is be curious. Learn, being in learning mode, be open to opportunities, be open to new learnings, to new skills, be agile in that way. Don't be close-minded to new things. The world is going so fast, you'll be left behind. And you'll discover things that you would never have imagined. So learning and being curious about others, curious about business, curious about situations, continue digging in and learning new things, I think is the key. I cannot say that enough.

On the imposter side, I was always curious and always keen to learn. But the imposter syndrome, I see a little bit differently, where I've had many conversations over the time. I've seen people around me. And there are a few techniques, honestly, because it's you talking to yourself more often than not in that predicament.

And trying to shut down that little voice in your head or reflect on your accomplishment on what's going well, what have you learned through it. So there's may be connection to learning there, but growing from your success, growing from your learnings helps combat that. And to me, it was always about trying to shut down that voice to the point where it doesn't come up again or so rarely as you progress.

Lindsey Hall: You mentioned your three kids when you were talking about the decision to move from Canada. I also have three kids, so this is something that I think about a lot, just this question of how do you balance the work and the parenting aspect of your life. And obviously, this is a question that is relevant for any parents, not just women, but responsibilities often fall historically in our society more to women for caring for children and family members. So this is a question that I would like to ask, just how you approach this balance in your career.

Martine Ferland: I totally agree with you. The social pressure, there's roles that we, even we as women, we see ourselves in a certain way with our children and our responsibility towards children. There's been progress and movement since 30 years, 35 years ago since I had my first child, but I see that this moves relatively slowly. And maybe there's some good that comes out of this. And you're quite right.

And I see that the younger generation coming, I have two grandchildren, and I see the responsibility being much better balanced with the father wanting to really, really genuinely be part of the life of the kids from get-go, and I find that. It gives me a lot of hope but to balance it all, when basic thinking about that with all those years behind me and many people around me have gone through the same questions is, first, life is long if you're lucky and career spans a long time and during your career, you'll have different demands on your time, whether it's kids or something else, a big ramp up in a new role or an elderly parent.

There's all kinds of things happening and you can flex up and down from your own line of intensity, but this will change over the time. The period of time where your children really need you in a very intense way, from a time perspective, is short in the grand scheme of things.

So one thing that's very important for me is being in the present all the time. I hate wasting my time. And I think if you're not in the moment, you're wasting the other person's time or you're wasting your own time. There will come a time for something else, so try to put worries in the little doers come to them, of course, and prioritize. The house is on fire, get out, but there's a way to prioritize so that you're really in the moment. And I find that has been a blessing as you go through those early years.

For me, the time that I was at home, I was really with the children. I spend time. I also prioritize, for example, in my busy calendar agenda, if there was a school outing or if there was their birthday, I would love the time off and take the day to be with them, to accompany to school, to their class, at the zoo or wherever they were going then. I have made space for those special occasions.

And for privileged, the quality of the time with them because I didn't have the luxury of the quantity of the time and many of us, that's the problem as well. The quality of the ties and the bonds that you create as well, they're listening as they grow older. This is something that becomes more and more important. There's no magic. When I say to young women, young men or young parents, no matter how you try to fix it and adjust and breathe, it's going to be tough, but it's going to be rewarding.

Lindsey Hall: That's great. Thank you. I know we're just about out of time, but any closing thoughts that you think are important for our listeners to understand about your approach to leadership?

Martine Ferland: What I find over the years is everybody have their own set of values, their own personal drivers and purpose, and it's so important to recognize those to know yourself. You will be a good employee. You won't perform well if you're not happy, if you're not well, if you're not healthy and mentally healthy, which often least to not being physically healthy, but know your own values, know what your own drivers and adapt to them.

And to the point I was making earlier about time flexing around a level of intensity because we all have different levels of intensity or desire or number of effort that we want to dedicate to different parts of our life, and they will flex over time. But if you know your intrinsic value, what really will make you happy and fulfilled, then you can calibrate against that and be honest with yourself. That's my parting thoughts, Lindsey.

Lindsey Hall: Esther, we heard Martine talked about that little doubting voice in your head, that imposter syndrome that can plague leaders. And it's so interesting to me that we have heard something similar in my interview with Helle Bank Jorgensen in the first interview in this Women in Leadership series. Helle talked about having to overcome the voice on her shoulder, questioning if she was good enough. So I'm definitely curious to hear if this comes up in future interviews for the series.

Esther Whieldon: Martine also talked about the importance of employee well-being, and this is something we'll continue to dig into in future episodes. And we'll be back throughout the year with more episodes in our Women in Leadership series.

Lindsey Hall: Thanks so much for listening to this episode of ESG Insider. If you like what you heard today, please subscribe, share and leave us a review wherever you get your podcast.

Esther Whieldon: And a special thanks to our agency partner, The 199. See you next time.

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