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Lindsey Hall: Hi. I'm Lindsey Hall, Head of Thought Leadership at S&P Global Sustainable1.

Esther Whieldon: And I'm Esther Whieldon, a Senior Writer on the Sustainable1 Thought Leadership team.

Lindsey Hall: Welcome to ESG Insider, an S&P Global podcast, where Esther and I take you inside the environmental, social and governance issues that are shaping the rapidly evolving sustainability landscape.

Lindsey Hall: Esther, Happy International Women’s Day!

So March is Women’s History Month; and today, March 8th, marks International Women’s Day. This day has been celebrated for over a century to recognize women's social, economic, cultural and political achievements. And it's also a call to action for accelerating women’s equality. 

Diversity in leadership has gotten attention from many stakeholders in the corporate world in recent years. And gender diversity is where we see most companies creating policies. 

Esther Whieldon: If you’ve been following this space, it also won’t surprise you to learn that women still hold a relatively low share of corporate leadership roles. This is true for both management and board positions. 

Research we’ve just published today shows that women hold less than one third of corporate board seats, junior management positions and senior management roles. And these percentages have barely changed over the three years of our study, which is based on the S&P Global Corporate Sustainability Assessment. We’ll include a link to that research in our show notes.
Lindsey Hall: We know what the numbers and the data show us. But we wanted to understand what’s behind the numbers? How do the few women who make it to the top of their companies get there, and what challenges do they face along the way? How do they lead, what’s their approach to diversity equity and inclusion, and what’s their advice to aspiring leaders?
Well, to answer those questions, today we’re relaunching our Women in Leadership series of the podcast. Last year we released this series in March, and it helped push the podcast over the 1-million download mark. We’ll include a link to that series in our show notes. For 2024, we’re again going to be speaking to women CEOs and leaders from across industries and all over the world. 

First up, today we’re going to be hearing from Helle Bank Jorgensen, the CEO of Competent Boards. This is an organization that trains board directors and executives around the world in sustainability best practices. I talked to Helle about the work she does to train business leaders; her personal path to the CEO role; and the challenges she faced to get there. Also, Esther I think she’s the first podcast guest I've ever encountered who has ever turned around and posed my own question back to me, putting me in the hot seat.

Helle Bank Jorgensen: We need diversity. We need it everywhere, right? That is innovation. The landscape we're in right now, it's tough to navigate. Let's just face it. The things coming at the boardroom, but all of us, 24/7. And you need to be able to have someone to discuss with and say, pros and cons, what are we doing in this situation. 

If you only have people that think like you, you're not going to get that diversity of thought that will bring you ahead of the game. You will run into issues with stakeholders that are thinking differently. So I'm very much for saying I'd rather have those discussions in the boardroom with diverse group of people that are able, capable and willing to ask questions and say, "could we look at this in a different way?" than I want to have that from the outside, saying, "why have you not thought about this dear company, dear board members." 

Lindsey Hall: I ask Helle for her perspective on what's the holdup? Why is progress towards gender parity and leadership roles so slow?

Helle Bank Jorgensen: It is a very good question. And yes, it feels like we have had this discussion over and over and over again. And I think we will continue to have that discussion. 

I think we are in a situation where people understand that have diversity of thought is important. But it's also the bias is who do we let into the boardroom. If you have a list of saying, I want a CEO with this kind of background that have led these kind of companies. Well, already there, your pool of people are very, very small when it comes to women. So that's part of it. 

What I would like to see is that we have those Board members, we would like to have around at boardroom table to have a discussion about the issues that's relevant for the business, not only of today but also tomorrow. 

Lindsey Hall: Helle previously published a guide for competent boards and she told me she is now working on a new book about the boardroom of the future. 

Helle Bank Jorgensen: The book I'm working on now about the future boardroom. That's what kind of transformation will we need to look at from a boardroom perspective in order to have the oversight of the company also for the future. 

So right now, as you have all of these companies that are going through transformation, we also need to look at the boardroom to see who should we have around the boardroom table? What are the level of competencies that we have right now. 

We've done surveys in terms of the competence level of sustainability competencies. And we have a long way to go in order for all those board members to have to be upskilled to understand what are the risks, what are the opportunities and therefore, make those informed decisions that we all expect from Board of Directors.

Lindsey Hall: In discussions about gender diversity, one reason we sometimes hear to explain the lack of women in leadership is the difficulty of finding women with relevant backgrounds to fill these roles. I asked Helle, if she hears this in her work. 

Helle Bank Jorgensen: Yes. I hear that. Then I say, well, let me help you because we have all of these fantastic Board members and aspiring board members that is part of the competent boards alumni network, lots also women from all over the world. 

So I would say it's about where do you look? And then what are the criteria that you put up. And again, if you have very specific criteria that only match a male board member, well, yes, it's hard to find. But when you start asking a little bit further, what is it really? What is the role of this Board member? Do you need to have one more that understand the same thing in -- around the boardroom table? 

What kind of skills? You'll look at the skills matrix and start saying what kind of skills do we need today, but also what kind of skills do we need tomorrow? What kind of person are we looking for? 

And suddenly, you open up the opportunity to find the right candidate. And you -- I want to hear over again is that when you find that right candidate and actually often a woman, you start having a different conversation around the boardroom take. You start looking at issues in a different way. You start getting a sense of what is it that we could have of innovation opportunities, where is it that there might be a risk on reputational issues, where is it there might be a trust issue if we don't dig a little bit deeper in a conversation about a decision we have to make.

Lindsey Hall: Helle talked to me about her path to the CEO role at Competent Boards. And as you'll hear, she described it as anything but a straight path.

Helle Bank Jorgensen: My personal patj was long, nonlinear. I'm a business lawyer. I'm an auditor by training. But while I was starting to become an accountant and auditor, I actually joined a technical university to work on life cycle costs and pricing of externalities. That was because I saw this article in a newspaper that the professor was talking about life cycle analysis and how to do research and development of products. And I was like, oh, this sounds interesting. I can do my master thesis around that, but by pricing the externals. 

So I joined the technical university, and then the professor gave me this fantastic opportunity to work with the steel work to create what became the world's first green account. And we called it the green account as it was a presentation of the environmental data and the impact instead of the financial data. It was also done in collaboration with the finance department of the steelwork. So the green account was integrated into the financial report. 

And that was back in, what, 1990, 1991, plus 30 years ago. I think I'm dating myself here. But then after doing that, I joined Price Waterhouse, now PwC, back in 1992, as an account, an auditor. And a few months later, I managed to get permission to use 50% of my time to build a sustainability practice or I think we call it environmental practice at that point. 

But I had to promise to start to become a state authorized public accountant, or that's the Danish equivalent of a CPA. So I kept my promise. Got the degree, became a partner in 2000, actually the second female equity partner in the firm. 

So back to your question before, we've gone a long way since then. At that point, I also got the role as the sustainable business solution territory leader, I think it's called, and I served under wide leadership team. 

Then I was asked by our global CEO to move to the U.S. and help build the U.S. sustainability and climate change practice. I then got the responsibility for the Americas and soon after I was asked to actually take on the global role. 

It all happened very fast, and I asked that point a colleague for advice, who suggested I said no to that role. And that was a decision that I -- I guess, after it was too late regretted. 

So when the phone rang, and another colleague suggests me as a candidate for the CEO of the Danish firm, I took on that challenge. I didn't get the job, and then I decided to quit after 19 years.

But that led me to start on my own and gave me the opportunity to take on this role as the CEO of Competent Boards and now a global organization where we are assisting companies, training their Board of Directors, training management executives. And I guess we have now trained and advised boards of directors and executives in over 55 countries. So very nonlinear way, but very exciting to be quite honest.  

Lindsey Hall: What were some of the challenges you faced along that path? And how did you approach them?  

Helle Bank Jorgensen: Well, I think my biggest challenge is probably that was on my shoulder questioning the past, questioning with all the time, spend a lot of time on the work. So you question yourself, are you good enough mother, daughter, wife boss — I guess, fill in the blanks. So I think that's probably one. 

Then, of course, as I said, I was the second female equity partner. You get to learn to run with what you have and the punches that you get and have those conversations and tell people, well, this is how I look at things. So I can tell you it was kind of like funny. Every time we were at meetings, the line for the ladies room was very short.  

Lindsey Hall: Which is not normally the case anywhere else you go in the world.

Helle Bank Jorgensen: Exactly.

Lindsey Hall: Yes, I think for a lot of us, we look to a CEO like yourself, and I see you giving keynote addresses and speaking at big events. And the impression from the outside is that this person has it completely together, has all the answers. It's just this super linear straightforward path. So it's just very encouraging to hear that you face a lot of these same doubts. It sounds like that many of us face. I know I face, every day am I a good enough mother? Like how do I balance being a mother with my job and just how do I make it all work, like that voice can get really loud.  

Helle Bank Jorgensen: I guess the positive of all of this and probably the reason why you look at me like that, that's because of my husband. I mean he's always been there to support me and believe in me, and I simply could not do what I do without his support. He is there. And when I doubt too much, he gives me the push I need. 

Lindsey Hall: For our listeners who might be earlier in their careers, I'd love to know what was the most helpful advice you've received or steps that you've taken in advancing your career? 

Helle Bank Jorgensen: Women will often -- if they get an offer, think about it, go and ask others, while there is a tendency in men to just say, yes. And I think best advice is to just do it, right? If this is what seems right, this is what you believe in, then go ahead and do it. And you never know what you're going to miss if not.

Lindsey Hall: Yes, you talked a little bit about the, regretting the decision to not pursue that one role. Does that play into what you're telling me now? 

Helle Bank Jorgensen: Yes, it might. I'm not regretting as such now, right. But yes, it's this thing that if you get off or something, think about it, but don't think about it too long, right? And don't think about all the negative things about it, see the opportunities. I think that would be the way I would look at it. 

Lindsey Hall: Helle grew up in Denmark and has worked all around the world. I wanted to understand how this global experience has shaped her perspective on leadership. 

Helle Bank Jorgensen: I've worked with companies all over the world. And yes, we now work with leaders from over 55 countries, I think we're close to 60. So understanding the value and impact of diversity equity inclusion, that's essential. 

We host our global dialogue forum. And that's where you get the diverse opinions. You get the diverse skill sets, you get the diverse backgrounds, and they all contribute to, I would say, the best exchange of ideas, opinions, best practices. 

So if we don't have diversity, in my mind we don't have innovation. And that's, again, when I have all of these people from all over the world joining to discuss a case, practical case or discuss an issue, it's very different viewpoints you get from a personal necessary in the U.S. versus a person in India or Europe or Asia or Australia. 

By getting all of these different viewpoints, you can now start to both learn from each other, but also see where there are some risks. And often, if we don't have that global outlook, you're kind of like driving without understanding the road you're driving on. By having that outlook, you can navigate it much easier. 

Lindsey Hall: A lot of our listeners are going to be earlier in their careers, they're all over the world. And I guess my question is, what advice would you give someone who's just starting out in their career path if they want to advance and maybe one day have that CEO role? 

Helle Bank Jorgensen: One, enjoy. Two, work for it. It's not just coming there all by itself. 

Three, ask for help. Get a mentor. Get many mentors, but also be a mentor to others, say, yes to opportunities and believe in yourself. And I know all of this sounds easier than it is, as I said, think and then maybe I should add on. Things take time. 

I remember one of the partners that -- back when I said, "I want to do ABCDEFG. -- and I want to do this and this and this, and he looked at me and he said, "Why are you in such a hurry?" And I was like, "Well, because I want to do all of these different things." Now I can see it, right, that kind of like was pushing that, which I think is fine, but you need to understand also what is it really you want as a person and where you have fun. I think that's part of this. 

And that's perhaps one of the biggest gifts I have gotten that when I started working on what we now call sustainability, most people were looking at me. I was crazy. My colleagues was like, why are you spending your time on that? Now 30-plus year later, as you know, most of the world are talking about sustainability. I signed on after the first sustainability report so, so many years ago. Now auditors are starting to do it. So it's also about that believing in not only yourself but believing in what it is that you believe in and not just say, "Oh, okay, others say that this is not a good idea." 

I think we have a lot of fantastic young people with a mindset that some of us older perhaps miss a little bit for seeing new opportunities, starting a new business. And I think that's just take the chance, go for it, but believe in it. 

Lindsey Hall: That's a great note to end on. And it's really a call to action for our listeners. So thank you so much, Helle, for sitting down with me today. It's been a pleasure talking with you.

Helle Bank Jorgensen: Likewise, can I now start asking you the same questions? 

Lindsey Hall: Yes.  

So Esther, I thought how it was joking when she said she wanted to ask me the same question. And me and our producer, Kyle, started to wrap up the interview, but she persisted. And you can hear me getting a little flustered in my answer. 

Helle Bank Jorgensen: Why don't we ask Lindsay about your path. 

Lindsey Hall: About my path to my role?

I guess I started as a -- with a desire to be a writer and so did English in college and then did communications in grad school and got someone to hire me in a press office job at London School of Economics. 

And from there, kind of jumped from the press side into the journalism side, it became a financial journalist right as the financial crisis was hitting the world. So it was sort of on the front lines in London witnessing this in 2008 and got a real education by fire covering financial issues in the financial crisis. 

And then after several years as a financial journalist started noticing that at all the conferences that I went to, I would be often the only woman in the room as a journalist. And in fact, I went to one conference. And as soon as I walked in the door, a man walked up to me just like made a bee-line across the room. He was like, "you must be the journalist", and he was right, and it was really frustrating and irritating. So I started asking like why are there so few women in leadership roles in -- at the time I was covering the banking industry?

And then I started seeking out the handful of women's CEOs that were in the industry and interviewing them about their experience and then asking them for names, "okay, who else should I talk to?" Who are your mentors and who were your inspirations. And so -- that was really my kind of foothold or path into covering ESG and sustainability. 

And then around 2018, 2019, my company, S&P Global, started having more of an interest in ESG as did many in the sustainability world, they were starting a podcast on the topic. And I had never even like spoken into a microphone before, but just sort of raised my hand and said, "I can do that." 

And just sort of took a leap and they, I was very lucky that they were willing to take a chance on me, and so got this podcast and started building it and doing interviews, not just on diversity, but on all of the different issues that fall under the ES and G bucket. And then I was really lucky that it was in the sort of right place, right time and was tapped to come on board when we started our whole sustainability focused division. So yes, that's how I got into the role and now, which is Global Head of thought leadership at S&P Global Sustainable1. 

Helle Bank Jorgensen:  And you do know that luck favored the prepared, right?

Lindsey Hall: Yeah I think.... 

Helle Bank Jorgensen: You're saying I was lucky, I was lucky now, you were the right person, right... 

By the way, that's another thing how we talk to ourselves, right? And I think women are more than, oh, I was lucky enough to -- I was just reflecting on, say yes. But go and seek those opportunities. And that's exactly what you have done, even though you said you're lucky. 

Lindsey Hall: So that interview turned out to be way more personal than I expected. 

Esther Whieldon: And I think Helle has a good point, though. Part of leadership is embracing the role with confidence. 

Lindsey Hall:  I'm going to have to work on that little voice in my head and the language I use when I'm describing myself. 

Esther Whieldon: Well, we have a lot more interviews to come in this women in leadership series of the podcast. -- and we'll be bringing you these over the coming weeks and months. 

Please stay tuned as we continue covering gender diversity along with many other key topics driving sustainability discussions.

Lindsey Hall: Thanks so much for listening to this episode of ESG Insider. If you like what you heard today, please subscribe, share and leave us a review wherever you get your podcast.

Esther Whieldon: And a special thanks to our agency partner, The 199. See you next time.

Copyright ©2024 by S&P Global  

This piece was published by S&P Global Sustainable1, a part of S&P Global.     

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