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Lindsey Hall: I'm Lindsey Hall, Head of thought leadership at S&P Global Sustainable1.   

Esther Whieldon: And I'm Esther Whieldon, a senior writer on the Sustainable1 Thought Leadership Team   

Lindsey Hall: If you're a regular listener to this podcast, you know that in recent episodes, we've dived deep into COP28, the big annual UN Climate Change Conference. One idea that emerged from this global gathering in Dubai is that nature had a more prevalent seat at the table here than at any previous climate-focused conference of the parties. 

And I wanted to dive into that idea in more detail in today's episode because nature is going to be a big focus of sustainability discussions in the year ahead. In addition to the annual climate-focused COPS, there are also biannual biodiversity focused COPS. 

We had COP15 in Montreal back in December 2022. And that conference is a big deal for nature because governments agreed on a new global biodiversity framework. Among other things, the agreement pledged to protect 30% of Earth's land and water that's considered important for biodiversity by 2030. The next UN biodiversity conference takes place at the end of 2024, and this is known as COP16. 

Esther Whieldon: On this podcast, we've covered quite a bit about nature and biodiversity in 2023. This is clearly something our listeners are interested in. And some of our most downloaded episodes in fact, were on nature and biodiversity. We'll dive into this in more detail in next week's best of 2023 episode. 

Now 2023 brought some headlines around nature. For example, the Taskforce on Nature-related Financial Disclosures, or TNFD, released its final recommendations during Climate Week in September. The TNFD created a voluntary framework that companies can use to assess their nature-related risks and opportunities. And as we'll cover in today's episode, this is built on the work of the TCFD. That's the Taskforce on Climate-related Financial Disclosures.

Lindsey Hall: In today's episode, we're talking about the rising understanding that Nature and climate are connected. This was evident in many of my conversations during COP28. And the agreement that resulted from this conference known as the global stocktake included language to this effect. The stocktake underlines the urgent need to address the interlinked global crisis of climate change and biodiversity loss, and it underlines the vital importance of protecting, conserving restoring and sustainably using nature and ecosystems for effective and sustainable climate action. 

To learn more, I sat down on the sidelines of COP28 in Dubai to speak to the CEO of a coalition called Business for Nature. Let's dive in. 

Eva Zabey: I'm Eva Zabey. I'm the CEO of a global coalition called Business for Nature. We're a global coalition of over 85 partner organizations as well as a whole network of companies that aims to drive business action and policy ambition towards a nature positive economy for all by 2030. So it's all about driving scaling and speeding up business action on nature and then making sure that the regulatory environment is ambitious enough to then level of playing field and drive even more business action around the world.

Lindsey Hall: Okay. I think a lot of our listeners will instinctively understand why nature is important. But they won't necessarily understand what this term nature positive means. Can you say a little bit more about that?

Eva Zabey: Yes. So nature positive is a societal global goal. You need to see it as a mission for 2030 that we can all rally behind. And it means that by 2030, we need to have halted and reversed nature loss. So we need to —  we're losing nature at an unprecedented rate — we need to bend that curve and bounce right back on our way towards recovery of all of these services that nature provides by 2030. 

And what is very interesting about that mission for 2030 nature positive is that it is aligned with what 196 governments in December last year adopted as part of the global biodiversity framework. So halting and reversing nature loss by 2030 is also the mission in the global biodiversity framework. Now the way you'll measure that is going to be by looking at the health, the abundance, and the resilience of our different ecosystems, biodiversity and processes.

Lindsey Hall: And who is Business for Nature working with? What does the stakeholder network look like?

Eva Zabey: So we have about 75% of our partners are business associations and organizations, both at the global and national level. We also have some of the world's leading NGOs and think tanks that have a track record of working with business like WWF, the Nature Conservancy. And that makes sure that we keep the ambition really high but then we're grounded in business. Then in our network, we have a business advisory group of about 20 leading companies. They are our sounding board, they're our closest allies, if you want. But we work with actually a much broader range of companies that are willing to step up action and speak up for policy ambition.

Lindsey Hall: I asked Eva, would the hope to achieve at COP?

Eva Zabey: So I think there are about 3 things that as Business for Nature, we're really pushing for here at COP28. The first is the clear message that nature is a must-have in any credible climate action. 

Finally, it feels like nature is much more central to the discussions here in terms of the fact that restoring, protecting and sustainably managing our natural assets will provide 30% of all of the solutions towards achieving the Paris Agreement. And so that's a really important message. 

The second is that companies need to take, need to develop and publish strategies for nature. So we're encouraging companies to think about how, of course, they can take action to assess, commit, transform and disclose, which are the 4 key actions we call companies to take on nature to contribute. But more importantly, have they got a strategy, a plan for how their company is going to contribute to achieving this global goal of being nature-positive by 2030? 

And we've just launched a major campaign on that. I can talk about it's called "It's now for Nature". We provide a nature strategy handbook, available in multiple languages to help companies think through what are the strategic questions you should be asking yourself at the board level. What are the recommendations and the resources of what should be used as you develop your strategy? And then companies are invited and encouraged to submit their strategies on the Now For Nature website. And over time, by 2030, because this is a long-term campaign, we'll end up with a whole library of different strategies from different sectors, different geographies that will inspire others to then develop their own strategies. So I'm just flagging that. 

So encouraging companies to develop a strategy is the second. And then the third is actually supporting all of our partners who work in climate who are pushing to phase out fossil fuels. Because ultimately, there is no nature positive without net zero and equitable. There's no way that we can reach the Paris agreement without nature as our ally, but equally, there's no way we can reach the global biodiversity framework without a stable climate. And climate change is one of the top drivers of bodiversity loss.

Lindsey Hall: Okay. So I hearing you correctly that your nature is sort of getting more prominence in these climate conversations like at this climate COP?

Eva Zabey: Absolutely ... like never before. There's been a real shift over the years of seemingly the discussions being very much focused on energy and on technological solutions towards much more transformational systems discussion. 

So nature is much more central now, which is great, but there are many discussions about regenerative landscapes and regenerative agriculture, about the whole food system, the health system. We're seeing those cross-cutting themes come up much more, which is excellent.

It cannot be a distraction, though, to make sure we're still focusing on phasing out fossil fuels and transforming the energy sector, of course, but it's a much more holistic set of conversations that are taking place that are addressing more interconnected crisis that we're faced with. So it's a more challenging conversation to have, but it's the right conversations to be having.

Lindsey Hall: Okay. So I'd like to ask a little bit about what's working well and then also about where the continued sticking points are. In these strategies that you're working on with companies, any highlights or concrete examples for our listeners about what you think is working well?

Eva Zabey: Well, the big ones, I would say, I think companies are at an earlier stage on nature overall than climate. However, a lot of the logic that companies have gone through to think about their climate plans will apply for their broader nature, plans and strategies. 

And when you think about nature, you can break it down as Science-based Targets for Nature breaks it down into fresh water, land, oceans and biodiversity that underpins it all. 

And many companies will be very well equipped with what their plans are and what their impacts in dependencies are on freshwater land, for example. Oceans may be newer for companies and so will biodiversity. But they already have information about how the company impacts on these different services. 

The evolution is that we're thinking not only about the impacts that companies have that can be negative and positive, but also the dependencies. And it's when companies fully appreciate the dependence that they have on nature and all the resources it provides across the value chain, i s only when they realize how critical their whole business relies on a healthy planet that suddenly, there's that "aha" moment of, "Right, we've got to them from the top, from the C-suite and the Board develop a plan for how we're going to contribute." 

I think a key message for companies listening is there is no perfect strategy and that we're going to have to be flexible in the way strategies evolve over time. There is no perfect data for environmental management, but that doesn't mean you still don't understand where your most material impacts and dependencies are and where your focus should be as a company. 

So you can still make sure that you are taking actions in the right areas without necessarily having the perfect metrics and measurement system in place for absolutely everything because that will then just stall action and progress. 

But there are many -- and this is one of the great positive takeaways about being here in Dubai is that I've never seen such a strong network of organizations that we work with and outside of our network that are dedicated to supporting companies on their journey. And there is way more alignment than maybe it first appears. So we are very much aligned and in fact, converging on what companies should be doing. And that, I think, is very helpful because companies can go to their -- to partners that organizations that they're used to working with or create new partnerships, but they will get the same logical steps to go through as is around our coalition and our community. 

There's one final thing just to add in terms of resources that I think are really helpful and concrete for companies on their nature positive journey, which are sector-specific impacts, dependencies and actions that we've launched in September actually at New York Climate Week with WBCSD and also with the World Economic Forum. We came together to develop this set of 12 sector-specific overviews. And they're all underpinned by really deep research and reports and road maps for each sector. But they have on a page, the top impact typically in this sector, no impact on nature, top dependencies on nature and your top priority actions that you should be taking if you credibly want to contribute to a nature-positive world. And so it cuts through some of the complexity and just say, if you want to be taking action and can't go wrong if you take these priority actions that relate specifically to your sector.

Lindsey Hall: This road map.

Eva Zabey: Exactly.

Lindsey Hall: Okay. So it sounds like in addition to a road map, companies and stakeholders at large also need maybe a mindset shift around the way they think about nature.

Eva Zabey: Yes, exactly. They must not be paralyzed by the complexity. And of course, the natural world is so complex in its beauty, and that's the way it's supposed to be. All the ecosystems are all resilient because of all of these, the diversity and the interconnections when you look at a specific ecosystem, you can understand that. But let's not get bogged down by that complexity for it to prevent any action.

Lindsey Hall: Something I hear a lot in discussions of nature is about the importance of building up the education and getting common language. So in the interest of trying to achieve that goal, two things I wanted to follow up on, you talked about the science-based targets for nature. Can you tell our audience just briefly what those are?

Eva Zabey: Yes. So perhaps people listening know the Science-based Targets Initiative for climate. Well, this is the equivalent for the other 4 planetary areas, if you want, that we should be looking at. So climate is one, but then the freshwater, land oceans and biodiversity. And if you want to get a good sense of setting targets for your company that ensure you're operating within planetary boundaries, then you're going to need to have some metrics and some confidence that the targets you're setting are based on science. So that's what the Science based targets for nature are developing the methodologies, they've really developed methodologies for setting targets for fresh water and land and oceans and biodiversity on the way. So that's what SBTN is. 

There's another really important acronym, which is TNFD, which is the Taskforce on Nature-related Financial Disclosures. All of the TCFD recommendations are replicated in the TNFD plus a few extra that specifically relates to nature. So companies then know how to disclose nature-related information in a more consistent way. And all of those are based on decades of work that has been happening like the natural capital protocol is one example of a framework that has helped companies know how to measure and value their impact and dependencies on nature. So that's some of the acronyms to be aware of.

Lindsey Hall: Okay. That's very helpful. And then this is a very basic question, but again, in the interest of getting our language really strong. We're talking about nature in an overarching way. Sometimes, I think people also use nature and biodiversity almost interchangeably. But what I'm hearing you say is nature is sort of the big umbrella, biodiversity is one of the subsets within it. Is that how you think about it?

Eva Zabey: Yes. Well, we can have a very long conversation about this because funnily enough, it's a very live -- it's a live conversation, partly related to the way biodiversity has been defined in the UN Convention on Biological Diversity. So bear with me because biodiversity is the variability between species, between ecosystems, and between genes. So it's got a multiple level that essentially means the diversity of life on earth.

So you can understand that, that then underpins everything that we have in nature. Biodiversity is a very important metric and a way to measure how well we're doing in halting and reversing nature loss more broadly. 

There is a language evolution, which is interesting because for many companies, bidiversity is going to be a very indirect issue. Whereas when you start talking about fresh water use or deforestation, regenerative agriculture, suddenly it becomes a much more tangible issue for the company. 

So what, in my view, has happened is that for years, we've been trying to get companies to think about biodiversity specifically because that underpins everything. We've put biodiversity in the nature of backpack to get nature up the agenda. And now finally, we are unpacking it again and people recognizing that we need to protect biodiversity specifically if we want to live in a nature positive world by 2030. So I hope that helps.

Lindsey Hall: That's very helpful. Last question because I know you've got a busy day ahead. What does your week ahead look like? What conversations are you really hoping to have in the remainder of COP28?

Eva Zabey: Well, I'm hoping to have many more conversations that look at the solutions and the actions that companies are taking to tackle climate and nature together. And I'm really looking forward to talking and exchanging with our partners to figure out our plan of action to continue the drumbeat on nature next year, ahead of COP16. So there's another whole COP system. Beyond this, UNFCCC unit on climate, which is around biodiversity. And towards the end of next year, we're expecting the biodiversity COP16 to take place, and we need to make sure that business and finance are super engaged as they were in the COP15 at the end of last year. So there are many discussions taking place about how we encourage companies to take action, to develop strategies, and then to engage in the political processes as well.

Lindsey Hall: Okay. Well, when that happens, I look forward to having you back on the podcast. Thank you so much for sitting down with me.

Eva Zabey: Thank you so much, Lindsey.

Lindsey Hall: Later in the day, I got to sit down and interview Eva and others in panel discussions at COP28 about nature. Now some of my key takeaways from those discussions were that TNFD has gone a long way toward helping companies ask the right questions about nature and the nature-related data has advanced significantly in just 1 year. But there's still a long way to go to build understanding of how nature is embedded into companies value chains and to put a financial value in nature in a way that speaks to the business community. Another key theme was that discussions about nature impacts and dependencies are more effective when we can move them from the abstract to the concrete, specifically tying them to how they affect people and communities.

Esther Whieldon: And as we heard, we could expect much more engagement on nature from the business community in 2024 as companies grow their understanding of the links between climate and nature. So please stay tuned. 

Lindsey Hall: Thanks so much for listening to this episode of ESG Insider and a special thanks to our producer, Kyle Cangialosi. Please be sure to subscribe to our podcast and sign up for our weekly newsletter, ESG Insider. See you next time.

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