Transcript by Kensho.

Lindsey Hall: Hi. I'm Lindsey Hall, Head of Thought Leadership at S&P Global Sustainable1.

Esther Whieldon: And I'm Esther Whieldon, a senior writer on the Sustainable1 Thought Leadership team.

Lindsey Hall: Welcome to ESG Insider, a podcast hosted by S&P Global, where we explore environmental, social and governance issues that are shaping investor activity and company strategy.

You might have heard us talk in the past about the Energy trilemma. That's the idea that there are 3 distinct energy challenges that need to be addressed in tandem. These are energy security, energy sustainability and energy affordability. And especially since Russia's were with Ukraine upended the global energy landscape in 2022, we've been hearing more about the importance of this balancing act. Well, in today's episode, we're going to explore some of the challenges and potential solutions to this energy trilemma.

Esther Whieldon: Now Lindsey, this was a big topic I heard about when I attended the Reuters Global Energy Transition Conference -- that was in New York City, and it was on June 7 and 8, which just happened to be when those big wildfires across Quebec, Canada, were happening. Those fires blanketed the Eastern part of North America in smoke and this cuts some serious air quality issues, including in Toronto, New York City and Washington, D.C.

Lindsey Hall: Yes, I saw pictures of the yellow skies above New York. So Esther, what was it like being there on the ground?

Esther Whieldon: It was really surreal. First of all the air was so sick with exhaust fumes and smoke that it was really uncomfortable for me to breathe deeply. And the air pollution was so bad, I could barely see the top of the Empire State Building from the Street. Given how scientists have predicted that wildfires are going to be worse in the coming decades. I couldn't help but wonder if this kind of occurrence would someday become the norm.

Lindsey Hall: Yes. I think for us on the East Coast, this is just a totally new occurrence and pretty shocking to see what a big impact wildfires so far to the north could have. Well, we're going to dive into this topic of wildfires more in next week's episode. But for today, Esther, can you tell us more about the conference? And what did you hear?

Esther Whieldon: So the conference is focused on the global energy transition and specifically the energy trilemma that Lindsay mentioned earlier. Some themes I heard during the conference include how to move from talk to action and really how to enable the more rapid deployment of renewables, low carbon hydrogen, carbon capture and sequestration technologies and electric vehicles. 

For these answers, I sat down with several guests, including Greg Jackson. He is the founder and CEO of Octopus Energy, which is one of the largest suppliers of renewable electricity in the UK. 

I also talked with Joseph Vellone, who is Head of North America at ev.energy. That's a company that operates a cloud-based electric vehicle charging management platform, and Joseph tells us how shifting the charging schedules of electric vehicles can help to address the energy security component of the trilemma and specifically when it comes to maintaining greater reliability and enabling the use of more renewable generation.

I also interviewed David Burns about the challenges and solutions for adopting low carbon hydrogen and carbon capture technologies. David is Vice President of Clean Energy at Linde, that's a large industrial gas and engineering company.

I also interviewed Patrick Schultz, who is Executive Vice President of Development, Strategy and Innovation and Chief Growth Officer at Veolia North America. Veolia helps industrial and municipal customers around the world manage water, waste and energy. 

One question that came up throughout the conference was how to enable the adoption of solutions that are still in the early stages of development and deployment. Many panel speakers suggested the Inflation Reduction Act, or IRA, will help spur some needed investments. The IRA, by the way, is a comprehensive energy and climate law that the U.S. passed in 2022 and allocated about $370 billion in federal spending to decarbonization efforts over the next decade. Greg of Octopus Energy told me that the IRA could create an inflection point for the low carbon transition. Here he is.

Greg Jackson: What I found is I think the IRA may have been the catalyst for an inflection point. I don't whether you remember, but before the iPhone, Europe was dominant in the mobile sector. Ericsson and Nokia, we're kind of globally heading should as the leaders. With the iPhone and then subsequently Android from Google, the U.S. took over. I think the IRA could be a point at which the USA now has got the catalyst to start building the businesses that will help drive this change not just here, not just for the benefit of American workers and businesses, consumers. But actually, I think I've seen today and energy in the U.S.A. to build this stuff globally, that the rest of the world is going to have to move very quickly to keep up with.

Esther Whieldon: Yes. And again, it's been -- one of the phrases I've heard a lot is the tipping point. Like how do we get over the tipping point for technology. Do you have any additional thoughts of some of the things that need to happen, like the perfect formula?

Greg Jackson: Yes. Well, so it's a great question because I think, again, let me use the iPhone as an example, the iPhone launched the mobile data infrastructure of the world had to change incredibly rapidly more than anyone's forecast to carry the exponential growth in data that, that started. It didn't spend decades planning. It happened when the iPhone happened. 

And I think we now need to take that mindset in energy, in electricity, which is we are not going to be able to solve every potential future problem by theorizing about it. We just need to get on and do it. So the more renewables we build and the more that creates, for example, dynamic pricing and times of abundance, the more we'll be able to deploy the technologies to make the most of that. The more that we'll see how businesses and consumers respond to it. 

Too often, people will worry about what do we do and then they also name some arcane circumstance. Well, let's get on with the low-hanging fruit to build all the wind and solar we can. Let's build hydro storage batteries where we can. Let's do everything we can to bring more electric vehicles to market and what a game changer that is.

Esther Whieldon: And then see what follows, basically. 

Greg Jackson: Yes. And we will innovate based on the price signals and the consumer business reactions. But in the way that steel plants move to where you had cheap coal low, cheap iron ore, the way that aluminum plants moved away have cheap electricity. So what we'll find that data centers will move to places where abundant renewables will not only meet their climate goals, but will drive down their costs. And then they'll use smart technology, they'll shift computing power based on where they're getting the cheapest power any moment in time. All this stuff will happen. We've got a bunch of vertical farms on our customer box, I genuinely didn't realize how significant an industry it was becoming 

Esther Whieldon: Vertical farms come up multiple times, yeah.

Greg Jackson: They are a great example because what we found was we got large -- very large units now growing up near supermarkets and population centers the food is grown next door to the supermarkets. Instead of flying it around the world or trucking it very long distances or selling on ships, we've removed all of the energy for transportation and said the energy has just been used to grow the food. And when in renewable world, what we found is they're optimizing the crops grow when power prices are cheap. When power prices are expensive, they turn the lights off and the crops sleep, the crops drive in this environment.

Esther Whieldon: Well, that makes sense because most plants need no more than 6 hours of sunlight, right? Like I think with non-real sublet. -- indoor light type side, it means more than that. But still, they don't need 24-hour sun, right, or like?

Greg Jackson: So you clearly know more than me about the specific these plants, but the interesting -- when you asked about data earlier, like, for example, the people in sent been working on this data based on the real life experience, what happens when we build a more renewable intensive grid. And the outcomes have been fantastic. We would never theorize that. It happened because we got on with it. Let's go on with it.

Esther Whieldon: So we heard Greg say that renewable generation can help prompt the adoption of new solutions across multiple sectors, including agriculture. We'll hear more about solving the challenges of how to reliably integrate more renewables into the grid later on in this episode. 

But first, let's turn to one technology that came up in nearly every panel I attended, which was low-carbon hydrogen. Now there is effectively a rainbow of colors Lindsay that are used to describe hydrogen. One is grey hydrogen, which is the most commonly used hydrogen today. Grey hydrogen, also known as conventional hydrogen is derived from natural gas using an energy-intensive process that emits carbon dioxide.

Lindsey Hall: Yes, we did the episode back in 2021 where we looked at the research and development on 2 other categories of hydrogen. One is blue hydrogen, which like grey hydrogen, is derived from natural gas. But blue hydrogen is different and that it's paired with carbon capturing technology to reduce the resulting emissions. We also examined the role of green hydrogen, which is created using renewable generation by using electrolysis to separate water molecules will include a link to that episode in our show notes.

Esther Whieldon: What's changed since we did that episode is the U.S. passage of the IRA, which had a number of incentives to promote clean hydrogen, including increasing tax credits available for carbon capture and storage, which, as Lindsey mentioned, is how blue hydrogen is produced. 

David of Linde tells me that one of the energy trilemma challenges with low carbon hydrogen is bringing down the cost of the technology. I caught up with him for a virtual interview shortly after the Reuters event. Here's my discussion with David, where he started off by talking about his experience being in New York City when the air quality was so bad.

David Burns: I was coming in from Canada, so I arrived in Canada. And then I was kind of surprised to see the yellow brown sky. It was a bit apocalyptic in some ways, right? And kind of a little smell of being in near of somewhere a barbecue somewhere. As it turned out, that was not affected for many of those way other than the my eyes are a little bit itchy or something like that, but no, obviously, kind of app does a clean energy conference going on during the week when New York and the Northeast was kind of covered in the data with smoke. So.

Esther Whieldon: Yes, I did find it kind of interesting. Here we are talking about trying to decarbonize industries and yet the atmosphere outside is so terrible. So can you give a brief description of Linde and its decarbonization goals or strategies?

David Burns: Sure. Linde's an industrial gas and engineering company. We've been active in industrial gases for decades over 100 years. As part of that hydrogen has been a key part of our business, a growing part of our business. And today, we have a $3 billion hydrogen business. I guess you could say it's conventional or grey hydrogen to want to better term for it. 

But we see going forward, and we've seen for the last few years that really we're moving into an era of clean energy reduced emissions. And so really clean hydrogen is going to play a big role in that. but really clean energy from a Linde point of view means all aspects around decarbonization, including hydrogen, including carbon capture and also including some of the applications such as in the mobility sector, leverage our experience in steel. 

We will be a large supplier of industrial gases to steel today, and we see that changing going forward as they look to go to clean steel, where we see hydrogen and carbon capture playing a big role. So we expect to play a big role there as well. And in other sectors, such as the chemicals, petrochemicals and refining sector, where we see clean energy and hydrogen playing a big role as well going forward.

Esther Whieldon: I asked David about costs and specifically, how the world can lower the price of clean energy technologies.

David Burns: Yes. I think it's a combination of the public and private sectors coming together, obviously, you need the right policies. You need the right frameworks and support mechanisms in place to help in what is a nascent industry in some ways, particularly when it comes to green or clean energy produced with electrolysis. 

This is not an industry that's kind of really at scale today to step in and replace energy in kind of gigawatt-scale quantities will get there, but we're not there yet. So we're probably 5, 7 years away from that. So in the meantime, what we need to do is drive scale, build bigger electrolyzers, sequentially larger projects and in that way will help build scale from the electrolysis manufacturing perspective, and that will help drive down cost of the electrolyzers themselves. 

However, I think it's important to realize that the cost of hydrogen produced by electrolysis is only about maybe 30% or so of that is due to the -- is the cost of the electrolyzer itself. The rest of it is the cost of the power that goes into it. 

So really, we need renewable power at lower cost and with higher levels of -- or good utilization factors so that we can drive down the cost of hydrogen produced with the electrolysis. 

Again, it's in many ways, a nascent industry. People are talking about building giga factories right now, but there aren't any out there at the moment. But certainly to meet the targets we're looking at, whether it's the, the 20 million tonnes on the repower EU or the -- by 2030 or I think it was 20 million tonnes a year by 2030, we saw under the recent U.S. road map and strategy that came out. 

That's going to require a lot of gigawatts of electrolysis and we're not quite there. So we need to start to see that capacity build up. And that is how that cost will be driven down from Electrolysis point of view, green hygiene point of view, it's the focus on the power, making sure that's available at lower cost and then also work on the capital and the investment cost for electrolyzers. 

The good thing is, in the meantime, blue hydrogen, I guess I keep coming back to colors, but blue hydrogen, you can produce that at scale today, the technology to produce hydrogen in those kind of quantities and capture resulting CO2 in large giga scale quantities is there. The only uncertain part, I guess, is sequestration. Sequestration has not been practiced at scale before because it's not been needed. 

But we think with the expertise of the oil and gas sector and all service providers, that technology is readily is something that we can couple with the carbon capture piece and the transportation piece, we think that will all come together quite nicely. We can deliver giga-scale hydrogen, blue hydrogen today is going to be a number of years before we're ready to do that with green hydrogen. 

So what you're looking at is, if you look at hydrogen, grey hydrogen certainly in the U.S. with the -- whether it's the enhanced sequestration credit for CO2, you can produce blue hydrogen at not too significant a premium versus gray hydrogen, whereas on green, you're probably looking at 2 to 3x the cost of blue today.

Esther Whieldon: We heard David mention how lowering the cost of renewable generation will be important to green hydrogen adoption. As we've discussed on this podcast in the past, the world really needs to significantly scale up renewable generation to decarbonize the economy overall. 

Another challenge to the low carbon transition is how the grid will be able to handle charging electric vehicles as more people invest in those vehicles. Joseph Vellone told me that there are several challenges to decarbonizing the transportation sector when we're using electric vehicle specifically. He said, first of all, we need to build out more electric vehicle charging infrastructure. But even once that infrastructure is in place, the grid will need to significantly ramp up electricity supplies. Here's Joseph.

Joseph Vellone: I think another challenge that we've seen is around actually supporting all of that charging demand in the form of electricity in a power grid that was built over 100 years ago and was not designed to support this level of demand. So just to sort of put things into context, an electric vehicle consumes about as much power as the average American home. So imagine a house gets an EV and suddenly, its power demand has doubled. Maybe it's a 2-vehicle households, right? A family with 2 vehicles, both of those are EVs. Suddenly, that household's demand has tripled. Imagine all the houses on the street at the end of the decade have got EVs in their driveways. And suddenly, that street's electric demand and the transformer or the substation that feeds electricity to that street is suddenly has set seen its demand sort of double, triple, potentially even quadruple. 

And that's a big problem because these parts of the power grid just were not designed to support or withstand that level of demand. And so if we are not able to optimize how and when these electric vehicles charge in an intelligent way, the grid will become overloaded, and we will start to see more and more blackouts. 

And then I think the third challenge is how do we kind of marry this transport electrification as we call it, in this transition from combustion engine vehicles to electric batteries as the sort of fuel source, with other changes that are happening within our energy system, including a transition from sort of very reliable, what we call baseload power plants that are fueled by coal and gas and oil and other sources to renewable sources such as solar and wind, which are, by their very nature, a bit more unpredictable, subject to the weather and the climate, wnd we don't necessarily have total control over when they're generating electricity. 

And how -- number one, how can we sort of keep the grid balanced, right, and kind of manage to charge electric vehicles when they need to charge with a slightly more erratic source of power. But then kind of the flip side of that actually is an opportunity because if we can align that EV-charging with the times when renewable energy sources are generating, when the wind is blowing or the sun is shining, we actually have this incredible power storage source in the form of EV batteries because EVs are just batteries on wheels. And can we actually leverage this transport electrification transition that the country and the world is going through right now to actually help keep the grid balanced and soak up those renewables when they are generating. And in doing so, kind of reinforce another part of the energy transition and the net zero journey that we are on as a country and as a globe to actually sort of marry those 2 sides of supply and demand.

Esther Whieldon: Joseph also told me something that surprised me, which is about how the pandemic has fundamentally shifted the timing of when customers charge or electric vehicles, which makes sense because so many people are now working from home. And he said this provides a whole new set of opportunities for using EVs. Here he is.

Joseph Vellone: Before the pandemic, charging patterns tended to be pretty uniform with respect to EVs. And folks tended to plug in kind of in the evening after work around 6, 7 p.m. and then tended to stay plugged in charging overnight and then unplugging in the morning for their commute. 

Well, something really interesting happened during the pandemic, of course, a lot of folks were working from home. And instead of necessarily maybe sort of plugging in at night or unplugging in the morning, they were just -- they would go from their bedrooms to their home office and just begin work and they're easy would have remain plugged in throughout the day. And maybe they wouldn't unplug it until the middle of the day when they took a lunch break and they went out to run some errands or maybe even in the afternoon when it was finally time to pick up the kids from school. 

And so what this has meant is that there's a lot more flexibility in when we can charge EVs. And that has persisted even sort of in this post-pandemic world that we're entering into. With number one, the sort of continuation of work from home and hybrid work, we are seeing a lot of the drivers on our platform continue to stay plugged in during daytime hours on multiple days of the week. But then also, we're increasingly seeing a number of EV charging stations being installed and deployed at workplaces. 

And so we're seeing a lot of folks commute to work, but then plug in at 9:00 a.m. when they get into the office and then unplug at 5:00 p.m. when their day is over. And this is yet another opportunity actually for us to charge those EVs with pure solar energy when it's being generated during the daytime, which has been, I think, a tremendous opportunity that we have started to seize for some of our utility partnerships in California. 

We run something called low-carbon events, where we get kind of real-time forecasts from the California grid operator about renewable energy generation and very specific parts of the California grid across the state. 

And when there is going to be a multi-hour period of low carbon, high solar generation, we will send a push notification in an e-mail to the drivers you have signed up to this program, letting them know, hey, now if you're not already plugged in, that was a really good time to plug in, if you can. You're going to charge your EV on Sunshine. And through some of our utility partnerships in California, you will actually get paid to do so. The typical scheme that we've been sort of piloting in California is you get $1 per charging session when you plug in during what we call a low-carbon event. 

And so if you remain plugged in during the day and maybe your whole charging session costs about $5, you got $1 off, that's a 20% discount, and you're also feeling really good because you just charged your battery with low-carbon electricity.

Esther Whieldon: That's really interesting because I guess one of the challenges has been like, I don't know how much is true for California but in a lot of great operation areas, wind and solar get turned off because there's just too much of it, right? And just -- there's not the demand for it to take it.

Joseph Vellone: Exactly. And this is a phenomenon in California called the duck curve. It's something that's only sort of been getting more pronounced over time as more and more solar farms and bridge top solar is installed in California, but we're seeing it now in other states and other countries in the world. 

And to have to turn off solar or wind generation is a travesty, right? It's the opposite of what we should be doing as we strive to hit net zero targets. And the only reason we would have to do that is, as you said, there's just more generation than there is demand. There's more supply than there is demand.

And so if we can turn up demand when the sun is shining or the wind is blowing. And by the way, we have pretty good weather forecast that tell us when that's going to happen, at least over the next 24 to 48-hour period, then we don't need to do that, right? And actually, we can turn that potential challenge into an opportunity, charge-up EVs, support EV charging and by the way, put money back in consumer's wallet.

The other opportunity is in what we call vehicle to grid. And this is kind of the opposite of what we were just discussing. So this is actually an EV battery that is charged or close to being sort of fully charged is it's got lots of electricity sort of stored in it and can actually discharge the electricity from the battery back into the power grid when it's really needed.

And this is a technology that is still new, and it is still being developed. It is not as mature as the more straightforward kind of demand side charging that we were discussing before. This is where you're actually discharging the battery and sending it back to the grid, which, by the way, requires the electric vehicle to be fitted with a specific inverter. It requires the electric vehicle to have a specific type of charger that is capable of what we call bidirectional charging? And it also requires the utility or grid operator to support that kind of grid exports. 

So there's a lot of things that need to fall into place there. But it's a concept that has captured the attention of a lot of policymakers, a lot of utilities and energy nerds because it holds a lot of potential, right? So imagine, you have plugged in your electric vehicle during the day, and you've taken it from 0% to 100% with solar power, right? It's soaked up with solar power. And then the sun sets, it's a hot summer day everyone is cranking up their AC. It's whatever, 6, 7 p.m., it's humid. Anyone who has lived ever in California has sort of experienced this, right? And then sometimes you start to -- the light search to go brown, right? You're getting a round out, you've got maybe a text message from the grid operator asking for energy conservation.

And so imagine then that we could actually just discharge EV batteries and basically use them as a source of energy supply. And this concept is called a virtual power plant because instead of having a big power plant, a nuclear power plant or a gas power plant, you have all these little mini batteries that are distributed sort of all across the territory, but that can then export power export back to the grid. And that can take a lot of forms, that can actually just be taking 10% off of everyone's battery, doesn't mean necessarily draining the battery back down to zero?

Esther Whieldon: So Lindsey, we've talked quite a bit about what it will take to solve the energy Trilemma challenges around renewables, electric vehicles and hydrogen. 

Well our last guest for today's episode says that companies need to also look beyond their energy portfolio and think more holistically about how to drive down the carbon footprint. That message came from Patrick Schultz of Veolia North America. 

Patrick also talked about a term that I hear come up in nearly every panel I attended, that is partnerships. And specifically how partnerships among companies across sectors and even with governments can help to solve many of the transition challenges we face today. Okay, here's Patrick.

Patrick Schultz: When I think about sectors collaborating, I think it's also to think about the silos between where we try to reduce environmental footprints, right? One is decarbonization, carbon footprint. That's what everybody talks about today. But oftentimes, the solution actually will come from solving a water problem or a waste problem. And oftentimes, the impacts of climate will be most severely felt in the water cycle. So trying to not sort of artificially separate those, but really consider them as a systemic whole and thinking of kind of regional local solutionsI think, is a key element. 

A good example, I think, for a real cross-sector solution is something we've piloted with GE and their wind turbine blades. We're now at a time where wind turbine is actually reaching the end of their life. -- and the wind turbine blades traditionally were just put into landfill, which is obviously not a particularly good solution. And so we now take those wind turbine blades, we dismantle them, we shred them and we turn them into a fuel for cement kilns and by feeding them into cement kilns as a fuel, it reduces the greenhouse gas emissions for those cement kilns. So as a result, it's a waste solution, but it does have a significant carbon impact. Yes. So the impact of feeding that engineered fuel from the winter and blades in the cement comes reduces greenhouse gas emissions by about 30%.

Esther Whieldon: Okay. So this is day 2, midday, day 2 of the conference. What are some of the takeaways you've had beyond sort of what you and I have just discussed? 

Patrick Schultz: Yes. One theme that keeps coming back is certainly that gap between ambition and action that a lot of the panelists have emphasized now is the time to get going. And I actually attended a smaller group breakout session yesterday over lunch. And a big theme was, well, what's holding us back? 

And some of the themes that came up there, I thought were quite interesting with specific focus on the United States, where everybody is very excited about federal funding money being poured into let's call it the greening of the economy. But then the reality on the ground oftentimes is permitting delays.

And so there's a gap between the ambition of actually achieving a greener economy and then actually making the investments and spending that money because getting an air permit for a new facility still may take 6 months, 12 months, depending on what state you're in. And so trying to break through some of those more administrative bureaucratic barriers to actually getting the money deployed, I think, is a big theme that came out of the conversation yesterday.

Esther Whieldon: Did you hear about any other barriers beyond like policies, carrot-stick-type of incentives?

Patrick Schultz: Certainly, the question of technology comes up. Do we actually have the technological answers to solving all the problems. And I think the one panelist yesterday kind of spoke about, well, it is thermodynamics. You can't break those laws. So it's not that easy to decarbonize an entire industry. However, I'm not entirely sure it's sort of a valid excuse for not getting going. Yes, to get to the last bit of decarbonization truly get to net zero, there probably are technologies that have yet to be invented, and we need to make those investments into innovation and technology. However, there's a lot of low-hanging fruit. There's a lot of things, particularly around energy efficiency that can be tackled today.

Esther Whieldon: As we heard from today's guests, there are a number of big challenges remaining in the low carbon transition, but companies are working on solutions that could help speed up the transition.

Lindsey Hall: Yes, in that topic of partnerships, that's a theme we've discussed a lot on this podcast in previous episodes and something I expect we'll be talking about a lot more in the run-up to Climate Week in September and the UN's Big CP8 Climate Conference in November. Please stay tuned as we continue tracking how stakeholders are approaching the low carbon transition. 

Thanks so much for listening to this episode of ESG Insider and a special thanks to our producer, Kyle Cangialosi. Please be sure to subscribe to our podcast and sign up for our weekly newsletter, ESG Insider. See you next time.

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