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Lindsey Hall: I'm Lindsey Hall, Head of thought leadership at S&P Global Sustainable1.   

Esther Whieldon: And I'm Esther Whieldon, a senior writer on the Sustainable1 Thought Leadership Team   

Lindsey Hall: Welcome to ESG Insider, a podcast hosted by S&P Global, where we explore environmental, social and governance issues that are shaping investor activity and company strategy. 

Esther Whieldon: Over the past week, we’ve been rolling out a special podcast series focusing on women in leadership. This is a new approach for us at ESG Insider to celebrate Women’s History Month and International Women’s Day.  

As we’ve been talking about, there is increasing focus on diversity in the sustainability world. Nonetheless, the number of women in top roles remains really low. Recent research from S&P Global found that women represented just 5.4% of CEOs in 2022, slightly up from 5% in 2021. We’ll include a link to that research in our show notes.  

Lindsey Hall: So Esther, we know what the numbers tell us. But in this series, we’re digging beyond the data to understand how the few women who make it to the C-suite get there, through interviews with women CEOs and executives from across industries and all around the globe. We’ve already heard from the CEO of European aluminum and energy producer Norsk Hydro, the CEO of household and personal care products company Seventh Generation, and the CEO of US insurance company Horace Mann.   

Today, we’ll be talking to Priscilla Sims Brown, CEO of New York-based Amalgamated Bank. This is a bank that Priscilla described as being “a little bit unusual” in the financial services world in that it is a socially responsible bank focused on all matter of ESG and sustainability. We started our conversation by talking about how COVID-19 removed some of the barriers between our work and personal lives and introduced a new normal in terms of the flexibility of our work lives, whereas that wasn't always the case, pre-COVID.  

Priscilla was actually in Ethiopia visiting family when she sat down for our interview, and that led to a discussion of the importance of leading her team by example.

Priscilla Sims Brown: Well, I actually find that people don't really believe you when you tell them to take care of their personal matters. But when they see you doing it, they do believe they do understand that you do think it's important for people to prioritize their own families and their own lives. And so I think realistically, it makes sense that every one of us comes to work as whole people. We aren't just who we are in the office. And so I felt pretty comfortable with my team. And actually, my team was incredibly supportive, chipping in, if need be taking on meetings, and we do that for each other. So it's worked out really well.

Lindsey Hall: That's great. So it sounds like you're talking about the importance of really leading by example.

Priscilla Sims Brown: Yes. I think in this case, it's really true. Everyone is getting used to this new normal, and I would say that you can't really expect people to buck the trend. And so come into the office on days, you want them to for things they may not otherwise come in for. And then on the other hand, expect that they won't work from home or work from wherever when they need to. So I think it's a little bit of a give and take. We ask a lot of employees in terms of productivity. And there are times when being at home doesn't work. It could be for any number of reasons. And I think we have to expect that everyone is getting into this new comfort zone with a reasonable give and take.

Lindsey Hall: Priscilla is in the CEO role now, but her path to that position was anything but straightforward. I asked her if she could have predicted she'd end up here when she was a kid.

Priscilla Sims Brown: Not at all. No, I grew up sort of moving around as a kid. And I think what I would have expected when I was a kid was that I was going to be telling stories in some way or another, whether that be as a journalist or as a writer, I really like sort of understanding what people were experiencing and then writing about it or talking about it. So that's what I would have expected as I was growing up. My career started actually in San Francisco, and it was with a PBS station KQED. I had a really grunt job as a producer, which really just meant I ran out to get tape and did whatever people wanted me to do in the office. And this was a job while I was still in school. But I really developed an interest in business reporting and what was going on in the business world in general. And so while I was there, I also then produced a show on a little independent station called Inside Today's Economy. And we talked about small businesses and what was going on generally in business. We also talked a bit about finance and had lots of really interesting guests on who were experts in various areas of business. I found it fascinating.

Lindsey Hall: And so then what was the path from there, which sounds like a really interesting job into the financial world.

Priscilla Sims Brown: Well, it was really the conversations after we went off air that got me into the financial world. One of the sponsors of this Inside Today's economy was the Chairman of a company called Sutro, which doesn't exist anymore, but Sutro and Co. was a regional brokerage firm. And I'd pick his brain after the calls and he was very patient and would talk to me, this young kid that didn't know much. And finally said to me one day, you really ought to consider going into the brokerage business because you're really very interested in it. You've got great ideas. -- there's a lot you don't know and I can teach you and why don't you come over and consider it. So I did.

Lindsey Hall: Priscilla described a lot of other steps along the way in her career.

Priscilla Sims Brown: I was at Sutro for a very short time, moved to Chicago, not long after that and worked for a couple of different firms, PaineWebber and Equitable and then ultimately ended up in Fort Wayne, Indiana, working for Lincoln Financial and really enjoy working there. I was there for 18 years. 

One of the most interesting things I did there, at least from my perspective was when I spent some time in Delhi just thinking about how Lincoln could get involved along with a team of other people. And I think that sparked a lot of interest for me given my background and the places I'd lived and what I was seeing there and just sort of thinking about financial services n other countries. A few jobs later, I ended up at AXA, which is insurance company that is in 6 countries or at least they were at the time. And that continued an interest in what was going on, not only in developed countries but in developing countries. And then fast forward again in 2019, I got a call from a recruiter, about a role at the Commonwealth Bank of Australia and seemed like an exciting opportunity to go learn something new.

Lindsey Hall: So I think what I'm hearing is this openness to new and maybe unfamiliar experiences and this just willingness to learn. Is that fair to say about your attitude?

Priscilla Sims Brown: Yes. I mean, I think for me, all of my learning or most of my learning business has happened on the job, and I've been really fortunate to work with very interesting people and very interesting businesses and in ways that sort of stretch how I think about the world. Coming from an Ethiopian family, having spent a lot of my childhood in Germany I'm not uncomfortable with discomfort, if you will, not uncomfortable with being in new places around new people.

Lindsey Hall: Can you tell me a little bit more about what you just mentioned, being part of an Ethiopian family and growing up in Germany? What was that like?

Priscilla Sims Brown: When you don't know anything else, you think it's pretty normal. So I grew up in a most -- spent most 10 years in a school in a very small town in Germany. Other students there were mostly from other places, not German students necessarily. However, my -- the people I lived with or lived around, we're in a very small village of Germans. And so it was a real cultural experience for me. 

I'm still very close to my German family, love them a lot, and they have a very different lived experience, and they're always sort of just being around them sort of challenges my paradigm in ways. So that was great, and I moved from there to San Francisco at a time when there was a lot going on in the Bay Area in the 70s, really a lot related to social action, and that was, again, another experience for me. I benefited from moving between countries at times when those countries were going through significant change.

Lindsey Hall: So as you can hear, Priscilla's career has spanned continent as well as industries. I asked her what she found when she moved to Australia.

Priscilla Sims Brown: I got there in June of 2019. So it was a really fascinating time. The banking industry was going through a lot in Australia at the time. There have been a lot of questions about banking broadly. And I thought the Commonwealth Bank was actually managing through this crisis very well. And -- but then after I got there, the country went through the most significant drought that it had seen followed by -- well, I should say, it's drought, then bushfires, then COVID and somewhere along the way, horrific rains and a lot of natural effects of climate. And so that was interesting. This was the largest bank in Australia and one that really saw its role as helping Australians through these crises and it was just fascinating to work with colleagues who were so passionate about doing so.

Lindsey Hall: So as you could hear, Priscilla is no stranger to working under crisis, first facing various natural disasters in Australia and then dealing with COVID-19. And I don't know that it's ever an easy time to become a CEO, but Priscilla took on the top roll at Amalgamated in 2021, a little over a year into the pandemic. I asked her about that step in her career.

Priscilla Sims Brown: Well, it came about because I got a call from a recruiter and having spent all of my career with these kinds of human issues being part of my job, I was ecstatic to hear about a role where I could really have impact on a full-time basis. 

So when I first got the call, I was just thrilled, really excited. The person who called me was someone who I trust quite a lot, and she also knew the people on the board here. And I said, I can't imagine that this bank can actually be a leader in all these areas with its board not taking issue at times, companies are generally more concerned about shareholder return and very concerned about all of their constituents. And so taking bold steps like this bank does sounds a bit odd to me. And she convinced me that no, actually, it was true. This bank is a B-Corp and this bank really does take into consideration the interest of all constituencies and really should be a place that you should consider. The B-Corp. designation exists for a number of companies who serve their constituents and the environment well. It is something that has to be certified. You do have to make this commitment throughout the organization. It's really about sort of being authentic in your commitments to the environment to social factors, to governance factors.

Lindsey Hall: Okay. Great. That's really helpful context. On this podcast, we talk a lot about the 'E' the 'S' and the 'G', but I feel like sometimes the 'S' or the people part of that equation sometimes is a little less understood, maybe a little less talked about. So I really try to tease that out when I get the opportunity. It's interesting to hear like, hear that, that's something that you've been focused on for some time in your career.

Priscilla Sims Brown: Yes, it is. And what was exciting to me about Amalgamated was its history -- it's really the DNA of the company that was interesting to me. It was started by a group of textile workers, people who are mostly immigrants who had come to this country were working mostly in that industry in New York, and they couldn't find banking services. So they started their own bank. That was 100 years ago. And today, workers' rights are still a huge part of what we think about and serve. Many of our clients are those union clients. But we also try to serve changemakers across a number of other areas as well. But it's that history that was interesting to me because I think in order to really make sure that the culture is ingrained across an organization, you need to have a why. And a lot of people in the organization I met talked about their 'why' it was connected to that history.

Lindsey Hall: If we step back a little bit and we talk about the banking industry more broadly, when I started off as a business reporter covering the banking industry, there was not a lot of diversity in leadership at least from what I was seeing, what I was covering. Fast forward a decade and the percentage of women in C-suite roles is slightly higher, and we're definitely seeing more discussion around both gender diversity and diversity more broadly. I'd love to know what is your experience?

Priscilla Sims Brown: Well, my personal experience has been that I've worked with a lot of women leaders either directly in the company that I was in or had exposure to women leaders that were partners in some way with the firm. And so I've found it very comfortable to talk about some of the issues that we face -- but I also found it an easy way to gain insights. I could watch the different styles and approaches of women in the business. And I would say that they've evolved. When I was younger, starting out in the business a long time ago, I think women often not -- I won't make a general statement that everyone did this -- but I think often you found women emulating men. You found women doing what was comfortable to men in the workplace in order to be accepted. I think more recently, even as you look across some larger companies, you see women in the workplace that really do bring themselves to work. And like we were discussing earlier, they sort of practice what they preach. 

They come to work looking, talking and acting a bit different, but comfortable with who they are, so that others in the workplace can feel more comfortable, whether they are women or whether they fit other descriptions. It could be that you're a minority, or you're LGBTQ or you've got a physical difference. It's important that everybody feels like they can be comfortable with that. They don't have to mask that or feel sorry, feel apologetic about that. And I think what's really nice today is that a lot of the women I see in the workplace are very comfortable dressing, acting, talking, thinking differently.

Lindsey Hall: That's so interesting that you bring up that trend from the past where maybe there was one way of leadership, one style of leadership that was seen as the right way, and that was the way that men led because we've done some research S&P global recently looking at how women lead and did some natural language processing analysis of transcripts and conference calls and looking at how women's CEOs communicate compared to male counterparts. 

And again, I don't want to overly generalize, but what the data showed is that there are differences in like the language that the women leaders use and the sentiments that they're expressing. And so I'm just really interested in this idea that there are different ways that are equally valid and powerful to lead and communicate.

Priscilla Sims Brown: That's right. And if you don't show that, if you don't bring yourself to work in that way, you won't get the best that you can out of the people that work with you. I have, on my team, for example, someone who is quite introverted and doesn't like to answer questions in a group setting quickly. I'll ask a question in a group setting and that individual will be silent. And I'm accustomed to asking everybody to speak up. And so when this person doesn't speak up, it sort of stands out. 

I was corrected for that early on the job, and that was a really good thing for me. To be reminded that, again, you're going to get the best productivity out of people if they can operate in the way that they're most comfortable. 

I would also say we talk a lot about diversity in terms of race and gender. But we don't talk as much about the need to focus on the gaps that occur in economics. And while we're in such a polarized world, I think if you look at any political party, any religion and any racial group, you'll find that there are those who have and those who have not. And one great way to be a good leader is if people want to follow you what people who don't have are encouraged by is a pathway. So no matter whether you're at an executive leadership role, you're a middle manager, you're new at a company, there's someone who you can lift. And so I would just encourage everybody to think about paying it forward.

Lindsey Hall: What is the general trend you see outside of Amalgamated, but in just the banking industry more broadly in the U.S. The focus on DE&I, is it growing? Is it kind of staying the same?

Priscilla Sims Brown: Yes. I would say generally in financial services, not just banking. If you're on social media, you know that day in and day out, you're hearing about people making commitments, not just in bringing on people who are focused on DEI, but it actually sort of putting their money where their mouth is and programs. Now some of those will fail -- and hopefully fail fast and be improved and continue. Hopefully, people don't get discouraged. 

What I get worried about is just that, that people will see it as a passing trend. If the results aren't -- the outcomes aren't what they want or expect in 1 year, 2 or 3, they'll give up or that the fad will pass in some mines. Those are the things I sort of worry about. 

I don't see it with our clients, and I don't see it with a lot of my peers. I hear people making commitments to additional investments in minority businesses and entrepreneurs. I see people committing to diversity on their boards, where decisions are really made. I see a lot of people coming into senior ranks, C-suite ranks, and staying there. So I'd like to believe that this is going to continue, but I have to say that my underlying concern is that oftentimes, we have followed a fad and a year or two down the road when the stories are no longer in the headlines, people tend to stop focusing on them.

Lindsey Hall: And that's tough because this really is the long game, and it's a long-term proposition.

Priscilla Sims Brown: Absolutely. I think good employment practices are good for everyone. So if you've got systems in place that really give you visibility into your employees and their work and you're able to celebrate that, then I think that's going to benefit smart people of all descriptions. So it starts with having good practices. And then in addition to that, you have to be intentional about having practices that are specific to the needs of each of the groups you want to bring into the organization. And we try to do both.

Lindsey Hall: Lastly, I posed a question that we've been asking a lot of women leaders we've been talking to this month. What's your best advice to aspiring leaders from all walks of life?

Priscilla Sims Brown: I think we've talked about the thing that I spent a lot of time talking to mid-level managers about, which is find a way to be yourself. Inside of you, there's the power that you need to be not only successful for the entity that you're working with, but also to have real impact in the world, find what that is and bring that out and spend less time as my mother used to say, majoring on the miners, focusing on those things that aren't important. Be bold and courageous and your desire to have impact on the actions that you take to follow that? 

Esther Whieldon: Wow, I love that: be bold and courageous. I also like what Priscilla said about the importance of paying it forward to help lift up others in the company. I think it's an important reminder, especially given how many of us are still working remotely, which can make us feel disconnected from each other sometimes.

Lindsey Hall: Yes. It also really resonated for me when she talked about the importance of communicating authentically and how there's no one right leadership style. And then also the point about diversity being broader than just gender. It's something I'm hearing play out in different ways across this series.

Esther Whieldon: Please stay tuned as we continue to bring you interviews with women's CEOs and executives from our special women and leadership series.

Lindsey Hall: Thanks so much for listening to this episode of ESG Insider and a special thanks to our producer, Kyle Cangialosi. Please be sure to subscribe to our podcast and sign up for our weekly newsletter, ESG Insider. See you next time.   

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