Macquarie’s Ben Way on Infrastructure, Datacenters & Being Present

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[00:00:07]

Joe Cass

Hello, and welcome. My name is Joe Cass, Senior Director, S&P Global Ratings and the host and the curator of the Leaders podcast. So on this episode, we have Ben Way, Global Head of Macquarie Asset Management, and Andrea Quirk, Global Head of Ratings, S&P Global Ratings. A quick compliance reminder of the views of the external guests are their views alone, and they do not represent the views of S&P Global Ratings. Ben and Andrea, thank you so much for joining me today. 

[00:00:33]

Ben Way

Thank you.

[00:00:34] 

Andrea Quirk

Thanks, Joe.

[00:00:35]

Joe Cass 

Great. Well, Ben, let's start with you. Can you give us an overview of Macquarie Asset Management, what the firm specializes in, the type of clients you work with and also your role within the business?

[00:00:48]

Ben Way

Yes, sure. So Macquarie Asset Management, we today manage about $650 billion of assets on behalf of wealth and institutional investors around the world. As you know, in asset management, our job really is to protect and grow the assets of our clients. 

They're not our assets. And we deploy those across a range of strategies where we've got expertise and real track record, things like infrastructure, energy transition, real estate, credit, equities and beyond that. Probably the thing we're most well-known for is infrastructure. We really pioneered the investing class over 30 years ago. So today, we've got 185 portfolio companies in more than 22 markets around the world.

So I lead a team of about 2,300 people. We have 116 different nationalities, and our teams are very local to what we do. So we don't run the business out of one global head office. My own executive team are spread out around the world as are our teams because a lot of the things we do are very local to communities and local to specific markets. And we think the best way to find the best opportunities and match those with our clients' capital is to have people on the ground sourcing those and really navigating them from a risk return point of view.

So that's really what the business looks like today. And we're part of the broader Macquarie Group, which is a financial services firm that was founded more than 55 years ago in Australia. And I suppose an interesting thing about Macquarie is while we were founded in Australia, unlike most financial services firms, the vast majority of our assets, our people and our income are actually outside our home market today.

So it's one of the few truly global Australian headquartered businesses that's had 55 years of unbroken profitability. And really because of the size and the proximity of Australia, if you want to build a global business, you have to leave home. And so many of my colleagues like myself haven't lived in Australia for more than 25 years. We've lived around the world, building the business, really embracing a sort of a bottom-up culture.  

Question and Answer

[00:02:52]

Joe Cass

Thanks, Ben. Andrea, as Global Head of Ratings, can you share your key responsibilities and what your real top priorities are in your role? 

[00:03:03]

Andrea Quirk

Yes. Thanks, Joe. So in my role, I've got responsibility for the 1,600-plus analysts globally that we have who produce all of the 1 million-plus ratings that we've got outstanding. So every rating that you see that's produced and maintained is basically done by an analyst in the credit ratings team, whether it's a sovereign rating, a structured finance rating, a corporate rating, insurer rating, fund rating, whatever it may be, comes out of the 1,600-plus analysts who fall under my remit as Global Head of Credit Ratings.

So similar to what Ben was talking about, we've got a reach which is very global. We've got teams in around 20-plus locations globally, mainly based in the U.S., Europe and APAC. But similar to what Ben was talking about, our goal is to really have those analysts on the ground in the market so that they're close to investors, they're close to the markets that we offer our ratings in. 

And then in terms of priorities, I think the one thing I would start with, which is always our main priority and goes without saying, is that the main priority is pretty simple, and that's to ensure that we deliver forward-looking trusted credit opinions and best-in-class service to the global markets. Obviously, it sounds very simple, easier said than done. But as we know, the world is increasingly complex.

So we need to make sure from another priority perspective is that we're promptly addressing analytical issues as they arise whilst incorporating those evolving risks into our ratings and insights. And maybe just to give you a few examples of how that kind of plays out in reality, maybe just to talk about the California wildfires that happened back in January. We started publishing on the credit impact on January 8, which was a day after the fire started.

And then around a week later, we took several rating actions. Other examples include we recently provided the first tokenized fund rating to Ultra. We're commenting a lot on the ABS space and the private market space and how that's impacting credit ratings and how that's playing out. So the reach is pretty broad from a priority perspective to make sure that we're delivering those ratings and insights in a timely fashion. And then finally, our third priority is really around our commitment to innovation and improvement.

I think it goes without saying, similar to everybody that GenAI is a key enabler for us. It's definitely something that is making us think about how we shape our workforce and how it can be an enabler for our analysts to deliver the ratings and insights to the market so that we're moving with pace. but we're also delivering with reliability and integrity, which is really key for us in terms of us being that trusted provider of opinions and insights. 

[00:06:00]

Joe Cass

Got it. Thanks, Andrea. Ben, you mentioned Macquarie Asset Management, one of the biggest infrastructure investors globally. What's your take on the past few years in the sector? And what really excites you about infrastructure in the near term?

[00:06:15] 

Ben Way

Well, Joe, many things excite me about infrastructure, but I think it is a good question. Infrastructure is having its time in the sun at the moment. It is certainly getting a lot of attention. And that's exciting. It's actually super cool if this is something you're passionate about. It is somewhat amusing if you've been doing this for 30 years about suddenly this asset class is being discovered by the media and most importantly, by more clients around the world.

And I think there are a couple of reasons for that. One, as we've gone through an economic cycle where some asset classes haven't really held up in terms of returns and have been quite challenged. Infrastructure, I think, has performed well. So when I think -- when we think about it from a risk-adjusted return point of view, for most clients, it's continued to do what it said it would do despite the change in cycle, despite higher interest rates, higher inflation.

And that's because a lot of infrastructure assets around the world are an inflation hedge because they have long-term contracts with pass-through cost regimes. I think that's one part of it. I think the second part of it and perhaps a more interesting and important part of it is many of the big thematics in the world, if you think about demographic change, decarbonization, digitalization, if you think about deglobalization, a lot of those thematics are associated with what we do in infrastructure. 

And so if you like, those big thematics, the way they manifest themselves is actually through infrastructure, which is an enabler of those thematics as it is enabler of economies. And so I think that's the second part of it. We've got, one, really good performance.

So people want to have more allocation to that. We've got a change in allocation models where people are moving away from a traditional 60-40 model, which was mostly focused on public investments into wanting more diversification and realizing that infrastructure is different to private equity as it is different to real estate.

And then we've got these very big thematics around the world. And we've also now got vintages in terms of asset managers like ourselves where we're up to seven or eight. And so you've got a long track record, you've got deep teams. And so the opportunity set for us is incredibly large. And one of the sectors that's really captured the imagination, I think, of media, of commentators of analysts has been things like data centers.

And the interesting thing about digital infrastructure is we've been investing it since sort of the early 2000s. And we used to do it in terms of towers. We used to do it in terms of fiber, other things. And sort of the last 10 years, we've seen the rise and rise of data centers. 

And that obviously directly plays into the point that Andrea made, which is as AI changes our world, there is a rapacious appetite for more capacity. And so data centers, which were already a beneficiary of the world digitalizing is now also getting that turbocharge in terms of AI and the like. So I think that's why people are really fascinated in it.

And I think we've got -- the good news is we've got a long way to go. And most importantly, I think for a lot of communities that we invest in around the world, the governments that -- of those communities of those cities, states, provinces or countries often don't have the balance sheet to actually invest in renewing infrastructure and building new capacity. And so there is a real role, a really responsible role for asset managers to play to bring in private capital and help augment what governments are already doing.

[00:09:50]

Joe Cass 

Yes. Interesting. So I've been doing the podcast for about 4 or 5 years and maybe the word data center the amount of time that's been used in the past 12 months versus, say, the previous 4 years must be enormous. I'll have to do a search on that at some point. Ben, how much of your portfolio is dedicated to traditional assets like airports, toll roads versus the digital infrastructure, as you mentioned, the data centers?

[00:10:18]

Ben Way

Yes. So it's about 50-50 today. And I think the key thing to remember is that traditional infrastructure, and let's just use a container terminal port is a great investment. As trade flows have picked up, as trade flows have diversified, if you've got ports in strategic areas, say, the West Coast of the U.S., you really benefited from those trade flows. 

The other thing that I think people need to remind themselves about is that the advent of new technology, whether it's electrification, automation or AI generative analysis is not just applicable to the new world. It's also about making what we've been doing much more effective and much more impactful. And so I'll give you an example. Often people are quite surprised by the fact that the most advanced container terminal port in the world is not in Shanghai or Singapore or Rotterdam.

It's actually in Long Beach, California. And I know that because we actually own it. And that port today is completely electrified. So it's great from a net zero point of view. It's automated. When you actually go there, it's silent. You don't see any people out on the terminal ground. You just see these autonomous vehicles moving around. And what that's allowed us to do is triple the flow of goods that we're able to process through that.

Now the good news about that is that's great for shipping companies because they can load and unload quickly. It's great for transport companies, whether it be rail or truck networks because they get their containers on time. They then get it to small and medium business users when they want that. And that also means that clearly, it's good for the community in terms of employment, in terms of revenues, in terms of taxes paid and so on.

So I think it's a great example about the fact that when we talk about digital infrastructure, there is specific types of digital infrastructure, whether it be satellites or undersea cables or data centers, and they're incredibly important to advancing the world. But it's also the application of technology to existing infrastructure assets where we can manage them in a much more sustainable way. We can manage them in a much more effective way. 

We can really create value, but we can also do it in a way where all the different stakeholders, a port authority, a government, trade unions, labor unions, shipping companies, the business community also win. And that's what I think is really exciting about where we are. And I suspect over time, there's actually going to be a blurring of this digital infrastructure. Yes, there is a rapacious interest and demand.

You're right. I've never been asked more about data centers in the last year from the investor community and from the business media. But there's also all these other applications of digitalization to the world, which really allows what was what is often seen as older infrastructure or more traditional infrastructure to upgrade and be more relevant and also to deliver better returns in the world we find ourselves in.

[00:13:23]

Joe Cass 

Great. Thanks, Ben. Andrea, what kind of feedback has S&P Global Ratings received from issuers or investors about digital infrastructure like data centers?

[00:13:36]

Andrea Quirk

Well, I mean, similar to what Ben was just saying, there probably isn't a day or week that doesn't go by without us having a conversation, certainly ratings about data centers. And I will just comment actually, I've driven past that port facility at Long Beach many, many times on the drive down from L.A. down to San Diego. 

So I know exactly which one you're talking about. So interesting to learn something new about that as you see that kind of along the coastal kind of landscape. Look, as I said, there probably isn't a day that doesn't go by where we are not talking about data centers.

And I think one of the things, and Ben alluded to this as well, is the fact that this is definitely kind of a sector that is hitting across a number of different intersections, I guess, not only in the financial markets in terms of financing techniques, but also as well in terms of it's tapping into power, what does that mean for the future of power, energy transition.

There's an interesting debate about what does that mean for transition to net zero, for example. And I think also as well, it's global. This isn't something that is just sitting in one specific market. We're seeing this all over the world. I think the last time I looked, there's something like 12,000-plus data centers globally. And I think one of the things we're definitely seeing is how that's going to play out in terms of access to the power network going forward, which will become a critical value driver for data centers over the next 10 to 15 years.

I think the forecast is something like they need to add something like 15 to 18 gigawatts between 2025 and 2029. So I think from our perspective, there's a lot of interest. We're mainly seeing from a rating perspective, data centers more in the asset-backed finance space in the structured finance space, mainly in the U.S. I think we're seeing a couple of things from a refinancing perspective. 

There's a number of greenfield sites, which are going to come up for refinancing probably starting in 2026 and transitioning from that kind of more short-term financing as they've been building up to kind of more long-term options. And I think that we'll see that play out maybe through the project finance space or the asset-backed security space, once that operational stability has been achieved.

The other thing as well that we've been seeing is, as I've just mentioned that I think we expect to see more of that asset level financing coming through over the next kind of 5 to 7 years, just given that preferred structure because it's something that investors and the markets understand quite easily, whether it's securitization or kind of CMBS or whether it's project finance, especially in the U.S., and also in the U.K. And then in Asia, more of a kind of lean maybe towards on the project finance space.

I think the other thing as well is just the need for diversification of funding. What we might need to -- what we might start to see is the bank starting to get full on exposure limits in terms of financing. So what that may mean for the capital markets especially in some of that asset-backed financing that I've just talked about. So there's a lot of talk around data centers and that growth, how that plays out, how that's funded going forward, I think will be very interesting, especially as that growth starts to pick up.

I think just from a risk perspective as well, there seems to be more of a focus on hyperscalers rather than colocation data centers. Again, from a credit risk perspective, hyperscalers typically tend to remain captive, renew their agreements where the colocation they're perceived as a little bit more complex to analyze just because you may have different kind of agreements in place depending on what the colocation, I guess, looks like. 

And then I think what's an interesting conversation that's starting to happen that we're hearing a lot about is also just kind of that long-term oversupply risk for data centers with the expectation that rental rates will decrease once contracts start to expire. However, who knows the extent of that decrease varies widely amongst market participants. So it's -- I think it's an interesting time certainly from a credit risk perspective on how this plays out. But also, I think just beyond data centers, but kind of more broadly on digital infrastructure as well.

[00:18:33]

Ben Way

Can I just pick up. I think Andrea has made a really great point there. It's really important to pick up. The bottom line is not all data centers are equal. And if you're an investor putting money to work for teachers or for first responders, moms and dads, whoever it may be, you got to be very careful that we just don't all get caught up in this big thematic, but you've got real expertise to be able to size the opportunity and price it appropriately and deploy that capital. 

And it's right. To some extent, it's becoming more complicated in terms of its crossover in terms of its energy usage and what that means for communities, access, obviously, to power, the technology you can apply so that you can minimize water usage, the type of client you go after, it's right to say that hyperscaler and the quality of those earnings can be very different to colocation data centers.

And I think this comes back to a very important point about asset management today. We lived in a period for sort of 10-plus years where you could borrow really cheap debt with almost no covenants, you could lever up your equity and you could sort of trust yourself that if you bought something that was reasonably good and sort of broadly the right neighborhood, you could sell it into a market where multiples were expanding.

Those times are over. The cost of debt is much higher than it once was. The expectation of investors, the need to have real expertise and the ability to really be able to create alpha, which comes from expert investing, real experience on the ground, spotting the right opportunities, being able to differentiate between different opportunity sets and deploy your capital.

So you're actually building capacity, building cash flows, and that's what you're selling into the market, a better business has been made better by you as opposed to just playing the thematic. And I think that's one of the things that in data centers, we're starting to see a real differentiation between those asset managers who really know what they're doing and know how to create alpha and those that are just betting more broadly on the thematic because at the end of the day, we're all thematic investors. 

It's not about whether I can pick the right neighbor. It's whether can I find the right house in the right street that I can make more valuable and do that so that my neighbors are actually embracing that investment as opposed to applying to counsel to stop it happening.

That's really sort of, I think, the way we find ourselves in terms of the evolution of the industry in the cycle. And I think data centers, to Andrea's point, is a great subsector or sector of digital infrastructure to look at that and find out, well, who really knows what they're doing and who's built this expertise over time as opposed to who's sort of come into it and just betting the thematic because that's not going to work out.

And if that's not going to work out, that's actually not good for our clients and no one wants to see people who are pension funds or who are depending on us to draw down on their insurance lose any money on any investment.

[00:21:30] 

Joe Cass

Great. Great. Thank you, both. Ben, how do you balance private versus public market investments? And where do you see interesting opportunities right now?

[00:21:42]

Ben Way 

So I think the thing about our platform is that depending where relative market shifts because it does shift between public and private, and it does shift within public and privates between different asset classes. Really, what we're trying to do is in a world where our clients want more from fewer for less, we want to be able to have a breadth and depth of product that as their asset allocation evolves or changes, as relative value shifts between different asset classes, we're able to be a partner to them and provide solutions.

I think the big thing about public markets more broadly is the fact that the vast majority of allocators had the majority of their assets in the public space really constructed around the traditional 60-40 type portfolio. And I think what we're seeing now is the fact that people have realized, I need diversification between public and private. It's becoming easier to access the private markets just as I need more geographical diversity.

And so they're rebalancing their portfolios. And so I think the interesting thing about that is depending on the currency in which you're investing and the market you're coming from, the opportunity sets are quite bespoke and idiosyncratic to you depending on what works for you.

So I think if you've been in the U.S. and you're a public pension fund, then clearly having access to the public equity markets has made a lot of sense over the last five years just given the data. Yes equally, having access and exposure to things like infrastructure where you've been able to deploy capital and get very good risk-adjusted returns has made a lot of sense probably versus having exposure to office and retail real estate. 

But that doesn't mean that all of real estate isn't attractive. I think there are segments of real estate, particularly where we've got unmet needs, particularly around things like storage, logistics, but also build-to-rent, where there's really exciting opportunities to help create new capacity to respond to, say, things like the lack of affordable housing or quality housing around the world.

And so one of the areas that people often say to us is, Well, I'm worried about real estate. I'm not sure about what's happening in office. I'm not sure what's happening in retail. And then we talk them through the opportunities that, say, exist here in the U.K. or the U.S., where there's a massive shortage of rental housing for low-income families, but also for millennials.

And so the ability to craft and build capacity for them is really meeting that unmet community demand, but also because it's -- because a lot of it is in that sort of development space, there's very good return. So I think depending on the nature of the return you need to get as an investor, I think there is real opportunity in further diversification because there's just much better access now, but it will depend on the currency in which you're investing and sort of what sort of hurdle rate you're trying to exceed depending on the nature of your capital.

[00:24:56] 

Joe Cass

Right. Thanks Ben. Andrea, what are some of the key concerns or questions market participants are raising about private markets? Where is the focus right now?

[00:25:07]

Andrea Quirk 

So I think the main thing that we are certainly hearing and seeing about, and it just all boils down to transparency. And it boils down to that transparency on the full scope of the credit risk spectrum, especially as the financial system starts to innovate more. If you think about the public markets, they've got that systemic transparency kind of built in. It's been institutionalized over a kind of very long period of time.

Whereas anything else is kind of more contextual, it's got more situational transparency depending on what the instruments are. So the focus is really -- is on transparency. I think the other thing to kind of note is really is on this convergence of banks and nonbanks. And we're starting to see the banks and nonbanks really compete and converge offering that kind of credit intermediation and providing funding to each other.

So we're starting to see the lines get a little bit blurred. So we're seeing the banks lending to nonbanks, whether it's through subscription lines, warehouse financing. We're seeing nonbanks and private market players kind of more, as I'm sure Ben will know into the infrastructure space, into the insurance space, into the asset-backed financing space. And look, at the end of the day, and we've said this quite a lot, and I'm a firm believer in this. It's nothing different.

Credit is credit. At the end of the day, whether it's public markets, private markets, the risks really remain the same. But the emphasis can differ depending on kind of where the borrower is maybe in its life cycle or the maturity of it or the broader credit conditions. So I think my kind of simple message for this and also as well kind of what we're hearing certainly here at Ratings is credit is credit. 

When people come and ask us, well, how do you think about this? The answer is we don't really think about it any differently to many of our public ratings. We use the same methodologies. We have the same 1,600-plus analysts that I talk about kind of looking at all these different risks.

And I think really, the market is starting to talk a lot more about the interconnectedness across all of these sectors as the private markets get bigger and grow in strength. But I think transparency is the key thing. And I would also say just to kind of take that kind of mantra of credit is credit. At the end of the day, you need to know how you're going to get repaid.

[00:27:51]

Ben Way 

And I would say, bring it on. I think it's a great point. I mean we live in an era of transparency. Everything we do can be recorded. Information is instantaneous. It's kind of funny, don't you think that private markets has sort of stayed undisrupted for a large period of time and hasn't embraced the transparency that other parts of society, including other parts of investing have.

And I think if you want to be successful in private markets, like with public markets, you're going to have to deliver superior returns to maintain your client base. That's really your license to operate. You need that track record to win the trust of your clients. I think to maintain that trust as well, though, you also have to be a good partner and you need to give those clients a great experience. And so they want instant information.

They want transparency. And I think also the industry has to have a conversation with itself. We all say we use discounted cash flow models to do our valuations until we don't, right, because it doesn't suit us there. We don't really have a common language. We have sort of a broad philosophy, but everyone interprets this differently. And we know that doesn't really happen in public markets. There's one way of doing things.

And I suspect that clients are going to demand that we all have a similar level of transparency, but a similar level of way of doing things so they can better benchmark who's delivering right returns and they can mark those books along the way. And so I think transparency and disruption is inevitable. 

And I think it's one of those things where if you're a responsible asset manager and you get the point of transparency that Andrea make, you've got to embrace this and lean into it as opposed to push it back and say, well, I don't want to change. I don't want to evolve because this is how we've always done it. That's not going to be sustainable. And I don't think, ultimately, that's in the best interest of clients, particularly when we now are all excited about this big pool of wealth or individual investor capital coming into private markets.

That's just unfair to people of -- that's just unfair to everyday people who should have exposure to private markets, not thinking they do need more transparency and rigor. And so I think if we want to capture those pools, then we need to change and evolve. And I think transparency, as Andrea said, has to be at the heart of it.

[00:30:08]

Joe Cass 

Yes. Fantastic. Thanks both. And just from my perspective, transparency is probably the #1 kind of topic we hear around private markets from a number of different stakeholders at S&P Global Ratings. So it's good that we're all on the same page. Ben, what's been your biggest investing mistake? And what did you learn from it?

[00:30:29]

Ben Way

It's a great question. And I thought a lot about this. And I think it's a bit hard to say, I'm an investor, but I've made some big mistakes. We haven't made many mistakes as a firm, but we've certainly made some mistakes along the way, and we've been doing this for a long period of time. I think the biggest mistake we've made is where we haven't appropriately understood the local environment and conditions where we're making an investor. 

We're maybe taking a sector that we've liked in another geography, and we've decided to invest that in a new geography. And we've sort of overlaid what we learned in Europe into Asia. And while there's a lot of similarities, navigating partners and other stakeholders, understanding how our legal framework might be interpreted, really understanding on the ground the nuance of what we're getting ourselves into, I think that's where we made the mistake.

And so we really believe in the power of a model of global expertise, a global network, but real local knowledge. And I think it's where we haven't listened to the people on the ground or had enough people on the ground to help navigate that. And so it's probably occurred more in, say, emerging markets. I've spent most of my career living and working in emerging markets.

And I really understand the benefit of not just relationships, but they matter everywhere, but that really understanding at an idiosyncratic level, how a particular asset class works and interacts with banks, other competitors and so on, where we haven't had that level of specificity, I think, and real understanding and reflected on that and reflected on whether we could justify deploying the capital given the risk that, that presents where we haven't had that insight and knowledge and experience, I think that's where we've made a mistake.

[00:32:18] 

Joe Cass

Great. No, great answer, Ben. It's a very tricky question. So I appreciate you tackling it. Andrea, you've worked across lots of different functions at S&P over a kind of 20-year period. What roles have you found the most challenging? And what roles have been the most rewarding?

[00:32:39]

Andrea Quirk 

So Joe, this is also a great question actually. And the way -- actually, the way I kind of think about this is more about rather than it being a challenge, but more what are the opportunities that I've had. And I actually -- and I look back since I joined S&P, I consider myself actually quite lucky to have had those opportunities to work across different aspects of the Ratings business and also different sectors as well.

And I don't think there's one role that stands out as being more challenging than others. Again, they've all been different and challenging in different ways. I've been involved in regulatory implementation. I was in the structured finance practice when the GFC hit. I've moved into different sectors. And so that context always really matters. For me, certainly, I think as we've talked about a lot, right, today is a very uncertain world.

We don't know kind of what's going to happen. So even just every day, right, every day at the moment is a challenge with everything that's going on geopolitically. And certainly, from a rating agency perspective, we're working very actively to make sure that we keep on top of that as a priority. So look, I guess I haven't given you a direct answer to the question. There isn't one specific thing I would kind of call out, but they've all been kind of challenging in different ways.

But I think -- look, I think the roles that are maybe kind of the most rewarding, one certainly where we, as an organization, and we keep growing and evolving. Whether it's a new team, new sector, new markets, I think it's just super exciting to see how our teams keep evolving, keep growing the impact and the reach that we can have. 

I've sat in many meetings around the world with issuers and with investors, and they're talking about either a rating that's being done by an analyst the other side of the world or they're talking about a piece of research that we've put out and how it really helped them in terms of decisions that they have made. And that's super exciting.

And I can say that when I come back into the office and I give that feedback, I remember I was -- sat in a meeting in Australia actually last year, and somebody was talking about a piece of research that our U.S. public finance team have put out about the impact of the upcoming Trump administration on the healthcare sector.

And I never thought for a minute, I'd be sat in a meeting in Australia with somebody talking about a piece of research that have been put out by our U.S. public finance team, and that's great.

That shows that not to underestimate the impact that we have and they're the most rewarding times, I think, to know that kind of what we're doing, whether it's the analysts who are around on the front line, delivering the ratings or even the teams who are producing the methodologies or the teams who are helping us just get our ratings out, our editors, knowing that we have that reach and impact is just super positive. 

[00:35:50]

Joe Cass

Great. Thanks, Andrea. Ben, what's the best piece of advice you've been given and who gave it to you?

[00:35:58] 

Ben Way

I totally love this question. So when I first started working, the sort of first really significant businessperson I work for used to say to me all the time, enjoy the journey, Ben, and do what you love. When you hear that and you're 23, and you've recently graduated in Australia, and you're pretty confident and your elbows are a little bit sharper than they are now.

While I used to hear it, I didn't -- I couldn't really internalize and that didn't really resonate with me, but he used to say it to me all the time. And sort of as I got a bit older and I had kids and I had more experience, it really resonated with me. I think there is a real power in the power of now and enjoying what you're doing and embracing what you're doing as opposed to always thinking about next. But second of all, making sure that you've got a job that gives you purpose.

And when I was actually able to interpret what he told me and put it into play, it made me a much better leader, it made me a much better dad, it made me a much better partner. It also actually maybe just enjoy the world more. And so that piece of advice, while originally given to me and repeatedly given to me, it took a long time for it to sort of really, I suppose, for me to understand what that meant. And I actually now share that advice all the time. 

And I often explain it to people about you get these e-mails, who'll say, I'm very sorry, I've been so busy. And I really dislike that expression. You should never be too busy to say thank you to someone or write them a note to say, I thought that was great. Never be too busy to go to your kids or your family events. You'll remember those way more than you'll remember doing some PowerPoint or a presentation or having a business discussion.

I think this whole idea about being present in your life, having a multifaceted life, but also finding a life of purpose. When you do that, you can be much more successful. And in some ways, I think it sets you free. And so for me, the way that ultimately that advice is sort of manifested is I want to live a life of we, not me. In everything I do, I want it to be about us and about we.

And when I realize that, I just -- I got a freedom and an ability to do things, I think, at a much higher level than I could otherwise. And so actually, after COVID, having really thought and had a lot of time to reflect on that at home and doing a lot less travel. I caught up with the person who first gave me that advice and just said, thank you.

Actually, I can -- I can't explain to how important that's been. And I really now trying to instill that in my daughters that don't worry about what internship or what job, actually enjoy your studies now. If you can go on an exchange, do that and enjoy that, you're going to work for 50 years, I think maybe unless they're replaced by robots. 

But you're going to work and have a big career, enjoy being 20. Don't worry about being 40 yet and really try and find things, and they may have nothing to do what I've done, try and find things that you're going to love because if you do what you love with whom you love in the way you love, you live a life of joy. And ultimately, surely, that's what we all want to do is have a joyous life.

[00:39:17]

Joe Cass

Yes. Fantastic. Well, [ on that note ], thank you very much to you, Ben and Andrea for your time today for everyone watching and everyone listening, see you next time on the Leaders podcast.